How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

MillionMilesAway said:
I think to start with they'd get an idea of how not to go about leaving.
I suspect it's entirely possible to have some separation without the chaos, just by adopting a rational position.
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If it indeed takes ‘50 years’ to see the potential benefits, then I cannot imagine many populations bring quite so blasé about leaving. The world of 2015-2020 is much changed now so it’s hard to see Members desiring substantial separation, though a degree of deviation is often possible.
 
We still seem to be in the stage of having “enough of experts”. The rhetoric pushed by most of the media is the politicised version of it, it’s great that you have people like Calder saying that but very few of the papers will report factually on it.

I was listening to five live this morning and they were having a phone in asking the question who’s to blame for the queues in Dover, and they go to Margaret in Leicester and Bill in Lincoln who regurgitate what they’ve read in their morning paper. Why the fuck do Margaret and Bill’s opinions merit having as much airtime on national radio as actual experts?

I’m not sure if it’s all a knock on from the internet and social media giving everyone a platform and amplifying their beliefs in the importance of their own opinions, but we seem to be so arrogant as a country right now, ironically at a time when we also seem to be collectively at our most stupid.
 
hedkandi said:
we were supposed to be very pro eu until the vote.
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and I wonder why that changed for literally a few months?

Maybe because folks were told they would get this if they voted for leave.


1. Trade with the EU will be tariff-free and involve minimal bureaucracy​

2. Northern Ireland border 'absolutely unchanged'​

3. End supremacy of EU law and the EU's Court of Justice​

4. Take back control on immigration and asylum, and cut migration to the tens of thousands​

5. Britain will take back control of its fisheries​

6. £350M for the NHS instead of being sent to Brussels​

7. New trade deals, and access to a European trading zone 'from Iceland to Russia'​

8. Continue cooperating on security issues and counter-terrorism​

9. Financial protection for farmers who get cash from Brussels​

10. Continued participation in EU science research schemes, deeper cooperation on scientific collaboration, plus increased funding for science​

11. Wages will be higher​

12. The union will be stronger​

13. Cut VAT on energy bills to save the average household £64 a year​

Why the media in this country don't hold the fools accountable I don't know. Oh wait.....
 
hedkandi said:
as bluemaverick and gordanstache said....making it harder than it should be.
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It’s not harder than it should be though, it’s as hard as the rules that exist that we had a big part in writing allow it to be.

What’s made it harder is there’s been very little attempt to mitigate that risk in terms of the investment required in border infrastructure.
 
denislawsbackheel said:
Even the supporters wanted special arrangements, funding etc.
We never bought into the euro, Schengen etc.
We were always peripheral members.
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we were fortunately in the position to have our cake and eating it and threw all that away..............

Now we have a couple of eggs - not date stamped so they could be off - a bit of butter and a bit of sugar - we are waiting on the flour - something to do with harvests and delays and we have no recipe. Oh and Putin has cut the gas supply to our gas oven but thankfully our two candidates for PM are on it straight away and will resolve it by stopping dinghies
 
Gabriel said:
If it indeed takes ‘50 years’ to see the potential benefits, then I cannot imagine many populations bring quite so blasé about leaving. The world of 2015-2020 is much changed now so it’s hard to see Members desiring substantial separation, though a degree of deviation is often possible.
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I was more meaning that they wouldn't go for an extreme version. I certainly agree that only a nutter would take the UK route of chaos incarnate without planning. They'd also not charge into it because there was an election to win - there would be no rush.
Land borders are an obvious issue for most of them, although without the "no hard border" aspect of the GFA to be in the way. In many ways, the cavalier "it'll all be fine" approach over that is borderline criminal neglect of the UK.
 
a competent govt would have negotiated these things before leaving or maybe in the 6 years since we left - this lot found it more productive to lash out and play the blame game

www.itv.com

Blue badges may be rejected in Europe this summer due to Brexit | ITV News

Disabled drivers are being urged to check the embassy website of the country they're visiting to find out if their badge is accepted. | ITV National News
www.itv.com www.itv.com
 
MillionMilesAway said:
I was more meaning that they wouldn't go for an extreme version. I certainly agree that only a nutter would take the UK route of chaos incarnate without planning. They'd also not charge into it because there was an election to win - there would be no rush.
Land borders are an obvious issue for most of them, although without the "no hard border" aspect of the GFA to be in the way. In many ways, the cavalier "it'll all be fine" approach over that is borderline criminal neglect of the UK.
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Without the UK acting as a brake, the EU has been able to accelerate and deepen its integration, something which global events have also impacted. As such, any recalcitrant Member State would be starting from a position of already greater integration than the UK, and quite frankly the idea of ‘going it alone’ in any sense doesn’t look quite as alluring in 2022.

The ‘it’ll be alright’ attitude is the most bewildering thing. We can see from the list posted by @Saddleworth2 that things are patently not alright, and there is no reason to believe that the same attitude will not be equally wrong in regards to delivering on the promises made about dealings with the international community.

The English have been sold a pup and any decent opposition party would take that litany of failures and crucify the Government on it.
 
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As for Dover I have noticed an interesting change in language - remember also the head of the Port of Dover is a staunch pro-Leaver.

Friday and Saturday were a fiasco which they felt could only be explained away by blaming the French. When that was refuted and proved incorrect there was a bit of fucking about and things started to get back into some sort of order the Head of the Port of Dover started claiming everything was "back to normal" and this is the important bit "within the Port of Dover facility" and he went on to rightly stress that he has no jurisdiction over what happens on the roads outside. That was jumped on by the Govt and Tory pundits that all was now well. There are reports overnight of 21 hour delays to get into the Port of Dover facility.

The Govt today are pointing out - rightly - we were never in the Schengen Group of countries and that there was also a requirement to show passports to enter EU countries. However that was a cursory wave of the passport and the delays are caused by the necessary checks and stamping of passports to prove dates in and out of the EU - something that the Govt itself insisted on in negotiations but seem to keep forgetting to mention - which inevitably takes longer. They are also avoiding mention that prior to Dover the news stories were full of the problems at airports. These are now off the front page for fear of highlighting the two issues which can then be conjoined. The fact is that by trying to play the blame game they are highlighting all the lies - Johnson NEVER got Brexit done and we have NOT taken back control. All this talk of punishment for us is bollocks - if they wanted to punish us just don't man any border posts keep the barriers down agitate the French Border Agents Union and get them to strike and it would show how little control taking back control has won us.

The only bit we now seem to have in control is the short drive from the entrance to the Port of Dover to the border posts which they have got down to one hour. Outside in Kent it remains chaos and at our insistence the process of leaving the country is greatly slowed down.
 
bluethrunthru said:
As for Dover I have noticed an interesting change in language - remember also the head of the Port of Dover is a staunch pro-Leaver.

Friday and Saturday were a fiasco which they felt could only be explained away by blaming the French. When that was refuted and proved incorrect there was a bit of fucking about and things started to get back into some sort of order the Head of the Port of Dover started claiming everything was "back to normal" and this is the important bit "within the Port of Dover facility" and he went on to rightly stress that he has no jurisdiction over what happens on the roads outside. That was jumped on by the Govt and Tory pundits that all was now well. There are reports overnight of 21 hour delays to get into the Port of Dover facility.

The Govt today are pointing out - rightly - we were never in the Schengen Group of countries and that there was also a requirement to show passports to enter EU countries. However that was a cursory wave of the passport and the delays are caused by the necessary checks and stamping of passports to prove dates in and out of the EU - something that the Govt itself insisted on in negotiations but seem to keep forgetting to mention - which inevitably takes longer. They are also avoiding mention that prior to Dover the news stories were full of the problems at airports. These are now off the front page for fear of highlighting the two issues which can then be conjoined. The fact is that by trying to play the blame game they are highlighting all the lies - Johnson NEVER got Brexit done and we have NOT taken back control. All this talk of punishment for us is bollocks - if they wanted to punish us just don't man any border posts keep the barriers down agitate the French Border Agents Union and get them to strike and it would show how little control taking back control has won us.

The only bit we now seem to have in control is the short drive from the entrance to the Port of Dover to the border posts which they have got down to one hour. Outside in Kent it remains chaos and at our insistence the process of leaving the country is greatly slowed down.
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It’s impossible to accept that this has anything to do with Brexit as that would then lead to accepting other things as well, and that in turn would lead to the most dangerous of things: accountability.
 
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