How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

[Shaelumstash]

Worse than the vote to leave that myself and 17 million others wrongly made is the doubling down of politicians who can see it’s a shit show and despite that fact are seemingly even more determined never to go back.

Tories I get bit to hear Starmer and Labour say it is a mind fuck.

Fair play to you for saying that.

What has changed your mind from when you voted to now?

And with hindsight, what are you thoughts in how the referendum was debated at the time?

 

[Shaelumstash]

I am somewhat disappointed that Starmer has publicly ruled out re-joining the Single Market. I assume this is to head off all the accusations of "Rejoiner plots" etc that can be found regularly in the Express and Mail. The problem is that those accusations have not gone away and Starmer has tied himself into a corner by going public on this issue. I think it was a mistake. By being ambiguous at this stage wouldn't have cost much now but would have given him options later. I suspect more people would rather re-joining the SM was an option than would want to rule it out indefinitely, but I suspect he's got his eye on the red wall and has made the judgment that Labour will win more of those seats in spite of more people being pissed off with that policy elsewhere.

It's clear Starmer couldn't win a majority if he campaigned on a re-joining ticket.

In fact, I think he'll avoid all talk about Brexit, because the only hope of the Tories winning the next election under Truss is by making it all about Brexit.

I think the only way he'd ever consider going back is if he won a second term with a strong majority and there was an overwhelming public appetite to go back in. And even then I think he'd be wary because of the shit-show of politics over the last 7 or 8 years.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It's clear Starmer couldn't win a majority if he campaigned on a re-joining ticket.

In fact, I think he'll avoid all talk about Brexit, because the only hope of the Tories winning the next election under Truss is by making it all about Brexit.

I think the only way he'd ever consider going back is if he won a second term with a strong majority and there was an overwhelming public appetite to go back in. And even then I think he'd be wary because of the shit-show of politics over the last 7 or 8 years.

I think the same - the election after next would be 2030 probably, 9 years after the split. He'll be 68 by then, and may think it's someone else's turn.

I think he had to say something for this next election:
- say nothing, and he'd be a target on the grounds of "he won't say no, so he must want to rejoin - traitor!"
- say he's openminded about it => "he wants to rejoin - traitor!"
- say they're not supporting rejoining this election => "he really wants to rejoin but is too cowardly to say so - traitor and conman!"
- say rejoining is not on the table, then at least he can retort with that statement whenever the opposite is claimed.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I think the same - the election after next would be 2030 probably, 9 years after the split. He'll be 68 by then, and may think it's someone else's turn.

I think he had to say something for this next election:
- say nothing, and he'd be a target on the grounds of "he won't say no, so he must want to rejoin - traitor!"
- say he's openminded about it => "he wants to rejoin - traitor!"
- say they're not supporting rejoining this election => "he really wants to rejoin but is too cowardly to say so - traitor and conman!"
- say rejoining is not on the table, then at least he can retort with that statement whenever the opposite is claimed.

Exactly mate, he's made it a non-issue, which is definitely the right move.

If Truss gets in, Starmer has got an absolute open goal from 10 yards out to win the next general election.

The only way he could Ronny Rosenthal it, is by saying he's open to rejoining the EU / SM / CU.

He has to fight the election on the fact the Tories are unfit to govern, saving the NHS, and whatever economic / social crisis the Tories are firefighting at the time.

 

[Vic]

View attachment 50936

And if anyone had suggested in 2016 that this might be a consequence of leaving? Project Fear....

Nothing new: https://www.exteriores.gob.es/Consu...onsular/Condiciones-de-entrada-en-Espana.aspx

"Regardless of the length of stay, the traveller must have at least 810 euros or its equivalent in foreign currency" (or a credit card, but you have to take a statement showing your credit limit). But it may be that for a young person wanting to bum their way round Europe, you'll only get into Spain by dinghy (or of course via France and just cross the open border - no controls at Irun or Portbou.

 

[blueinsa]

Fair play to you for saying that.

What has changed your mind from when you voted to now?

And with hindsight, what are you thoughts in how the referendum was debated at the time?

I thought it and said it for quite a while on here mate.

My change of mind has been easy and it is because of the sheer amount of lies we got told and the sheer inability of this government to do anything honest.

The referendum was a huge mistake. Politicians lied to a general public completely incapable of making a rational decision due to those lies and simply not being aware of the facts surrounding our relationship with the EU over the years.

Brexit is a complete disaster.

Let’s at least repair some of the damage and vote for a government that will at least join the single market.

 

[Vic]

Exactly mate, he's made it a non-issue, which is definitely the right move.

If Truss gets in, Starmer has got an absolute open goal from 10 yards out to win the next general election.

The only way he could Ronny Rosenthal it, is by saying he's open to rejoining the EU / SM / CU.

He has to fight the election on the fact the Tories are unfit to govern, saving the NHS, and whatever economic / social crisis the Tories are firefighting at the time.

It won't be a non-issue. He'll still need a policy on the EU.

If that proportion of people who realise Brexit is a shitshow mistake keeps increasing, and the Brexit "opportunities" are just trade deals that bring no benefit to any ordinary voter but piss off the blue wall farmers, it may be the Tories who want it to be a non-issue. If they do have a bonfire of regulations (with very little Parliamentary debate) there will be no obvious benefit for most people (except for those who don't like human rights) and they will risk more objections to problems like sewage in rivers.

I just think of the Poll Tax. Rates abolished (still saving someone in a large expensive house thousands of pounds a year), and people then falling for Major's election pitch as the party that abolished the poll tax (that they'd invented).

The choice may be a Truss ideological pitch to triple down on the shitshow, and Starmer coming up with a policy to normalise relationships with the EU. But with ruling out the CU and SM he is of course ruling out what UKIP campaigned on....

 

[Saddleworth2]

It's clear Starmer couldn't win a majority if he campaigned on a re-joining ticket.

In fact, I think he'll avoid all talk about Brexit, because the only hope of the Tories winning the next election under Truss is by making it all about Brexit.

I think the only way he'd ever consider going back is if he won a second term with a strong majority and there was an overwhelming public appetite to go back in. And even then I think he'd be wary because of the shit-show of politics over the last 7 or 8 years.

He has to fix trade with the EU. Ignoring it won’t make the issues go away. I suspect the script will change if he gets into Downing St. I think he is very wrong to take this approach though. It’s cowardly.

 

[Gabriel]

He has to fix trade with the EU. Ignoring it won’t make the issues go away. I suspect the script will change if he gets into Downing St. I think he is very wrong to take this approach though. It’s cowardly.

It would be cowardly if he had a cat in hell’s chance of winning a General Election outright. For me, he’s competing for those seats in England and Wales that will get Labour within touching distance, but he’ll need the support of either the Liberal Democrats or SNP, maybe even both, if he wants to be choosing wallpaper for Downing Street. It’s for the voters in those areas that he’s tailoring his approach.

 

[Shaelumstash]

I thought it and said it for quite a while on here mate.

My change of mind has been easy and it is because of the sheer amount of lies we got told and the sheer inability of this government to do anything honest.

The referendum was a huge mistake. Politicians lied to a general public completely incapable of making a rational decision due to those lies and simply not being aware of the facts surrounding our relationship with the EU over the years.

Brexit is a complete disaster.

Let’s at least repair some of the damage and vote for a government that will at least join the single market.

Bravo to you mate, seriously.

Takes a big character to stand up publicly and own it.

If more people had the courage to do that, the country would be in a lot better place.

 

[blueparrot]

It would be cowardly if he had a cat in hell’s chance of winning a General Election outright. For me, he’s competing for those seats in England and Wales that will get Labour within touching distance, but he’ll need the support of either the Liberal Democrats or SNP, maybe even both, if he wants to be choosing wallpaper for Downing Street. It’s for the voters in those areas that he’s tailoring his approach.

Which makes me think, maybe he knows that and knows that part of any deal with the SNP or Liberal Democrats would give him the cover needed to adopt their policies of SM / CU membership as a condition of coalition. He may even be counting on it, that would make more sense than him just closing the door on it so far out from an election.

 

[west didsblue]

Which makes me think, maybe he knows that and knows that part of any deal with the SNP or Liberal Democrats would give him the cover needed to adopt their policies of SM / CU membership as a condition of coalition. He may even be counting on it, that would make more sense than him just closing the door on it so far out from an election.

Fair point

 

[Grassland Blue]

As for Dover I have noticed an interesting change in language - remember also the head of the Port of Dover is a staunch pro-Leaver.

Friday and Saturday were a fiasco which they felt could only be explained away by blaming the French. When that was refuted and proved incorrect there was a bit of fucking about and things started to get back into some sort of order the Head of the Port of Dover started claiming everything was "back to normal" and this is the important bit "within the Port of Dover facility" and he went on to rightly stress that he has no jurisdiction over what happens on the roads outside. That was jumped on by the Govt and Tory pundits that all was now well. There are reports overnight of 21 hour delays to get into the Port of Dover facility.

The Govt today are pointing out - rightly - we were never in the Schengen Group of countries and that there was also a requirement to show passports to enter EU countries. However that was a cursory wave of the passport and the delays are caused by the necessary checks and stamping of passports to prove dates in and out of the EU - something that the Govt itself insisted on in negotiations but seem to keep forgetting to mention - which inevitably takes longer. They are also avoiding mention that prior to Dover the news stories were full of the problems at airports. These are now off the front page for fear of highlighting the two issues which can then be conjoined. The fact is that by trying to play the blame game they are highlighting all the lies - Johnson NEVER got Brexit done and we have NOT taken back control. All this talk of punishment for us is bollocks - if they wanted to punish us just don't man any border posts keep the barriers down agitate the French Border Agents Union and get them to strike and it would show how little control taking back control has won us.

The only bit we now seem to have in control is the short drive from the entrance to the Port of Dover to the border posts which they have got down to one hour. Outside in Kent it remains chaos and at our insistence the process of leaving the country is greatly slowed down.

Work camp Britain!

 

[Gabriel]

Which makes me think, maybe he knows that and knows that part of any deal with the SNP or Liberal Democrats would give him the cover needed to adopt their policies of SM / CU membership as a condition of coalition. He may even be counting on it, that would make more sense than him just closing the door on it so far out from an election.

That’s quite possible though I doubt there is any ‘deal’ in place, just a non-aggression pact . If the final numbers do call for a coalition, then the horse trading will be interesting.

 

[Grassland Blue]

You're probably right to be honest.

If Jeremy Corbyn was PM instead we would now be living in the USS of GB and we would have rounded up all the Jews and put them in camps.

Utter rubbish!

 

[robbieh]

The Tory party have been in power over a decade and for the majority of the time have been busier fighting each other than running the country.
Unfortunately they have managed to blame the resulting economic chaos on the EU. In this the right wing press have enabled them.
Too many people were guilty of swallowing their bullshit rather than engaging their brains.

The Tory party are like the Titanic, they're going down, their only lifeboat is named Brexit. And they're all scrambling to get aboard. It will remain a national myth for a long time. Even if we re-enter the EU it will hang around like a zombie that just won't die.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Utter rubbish!

Sarcasm.

 

[Saddleworth2]

It would be cowardly if he had a cat in hell’s chance of winning a General Election outright. For me, he’s competing for those seats in England and Wales that will get Labour within touching distance, but he’ll need the support of either the Liberal Democrats or SNP, maybe even both, if he wants to be choosing wallpaper for Downing Street. It’s for the voters in those areas that he’s tailoring his approach.

The polls say 60% + now think Brexit was a mistake. To me ruling out even joining the SM will simply drive potential labour voters to the Lib Dems. Time for him to be clear what he thinks is best for the country and fight for it with as much passion he has got. His position round Europe has been cowardly from day 1.
I heard Wes Streeting rule out any collaboration with the Lib Dems last week. They are certainly making it hard for themselves.

 

[BobKowalski]

They probably do, but those routes - and Poole - have at most 5 sailings a day than the 50 at Dover. I think Plymouth only goes to Spain as well.
You'd even be better going on the Newhaven-Dieppe route.

Currently, the D-Day landings took less planning than a weekend break in France…

 

[Gabriel]

The polls say 60% + now think Brexit was a mistake. To me ruling out even joining the SM will simply drive potential labour voters to the Lib Dems. Time for him to be clear what he thinks is best for the country and fight for it with as much passion he has got. His position round Europe has been cowardly from day 1.
I heard Wes Streeting rule out any collaboration with the Lib Dems last week. They are certainly making it hard for themselves.

All three parties will vehmently deny that they’re in cahoots, and let’s be honest, just because 60% now appreciate that it was a mistake, it still does not give Labour enough room to manoeuvre in those key areas in which it must win. Ironically, that message could well work to Labour’s advantage in Scotland, but that in turn would not see them winning Conservative seats. Of course, none of this will be enough to satisfy those who want conviction politicians and clear statements up front, but given that it was that kind of politics that saw Labour face an eighty-seat Conservative majority in the first place, then I can understand why they are playing the long game.

As I‘ve always said, it will take incredible levels of voter education to see the three parties overturn the Johnson majority in one Parliament, and if it fails, then Starmer will look back, with hindsight…, and wonder whether he should have ridden the SM wave.