The Future’s Blue!
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How do we resolve the Brexit mess?
- Thread starter Magicpole
- Start date
Grassland Blue
Well-Known Member
I think that Starmer is a decent man but he doesn't have the courage to stand out on his own as PM.
He needs more self belief , conviction and heart in what he is saying.
He needs more self belief , conviction and heart in what he is saying.
Shaelumstash
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Did you see the by-election results last month? 30% swings away from the Tories, it’s unprecedented.All three parties will vehmently deny that they’re in cahoots, and let’s be honest, just because 60% now appreciate that it was a mistake, it still does not give Labour enough room to manoeuvre in those key areas in which it must win. Ironically, that message could well work to Labour’s advantage in Scotland, but that in turn would not see them winning Conservative seats. Of course, none of this will be enough to satisfy those who want conviction politicians and clear statements up front, but given that it was that kind of politics that saw Labour face an eighty-seat Conservative majority in the first place, then I can understand why they are playing the long game.
As I‘ve always said, it will take incredible levels of voter education to see the three parties overturn the Johnson majority in one Parliament, and if it fails, then Starmer will look back, with hindsight…, and wonder whether he should have ridden the SM wave.
They’d win about 45 seats at the next election if that trend continued.
And I can’t see the war on protesters and policy of removing the right to strike playing particularly well with the red wall.
This lot are acting like they know the game is up, and they’re ramming through as much far-right toxicity as the can before the ship goes down
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
The majority of Scots want to be in Europe so his message does not play well here. Basically he is encouraging Scottish labour voters to vote SNP.All three parties will vehmently deny that they’re in cahoots, and let’s be honest, just because 60% now appreciate that it was a mistake, it still does not give Labour enough room to manoeuvre in those key areas in which it must win. Ironically, that message could well work to Labour’s advantage in Scotland, but that in turn would not see them winning Conservative seats. Of course, none of this will be enough to satisfy those who want conviction politicians and clear statements up front, but given that it was that kind of politics that saw Labour face an eighty-seat Conservative majority in the first place, then I can understand why they are playing the long game.
As I‘ve always said, it will take incredible levels of voter education to see the three parties overturn the Johnson majority in one Parliament, and if it fails, then Starmer will look back, with hindsight…, and wonder whether he should have ridden the SM wave.
I think we agree that if he continues with this strategy we will see another Tory government. Nobody said it would be easy but if he were more honest around Europe I think he would have a better chance.
bluethrunthru
Well-Known Member
Did you see the by-election results last month? 30% swings away from the Tories, it’s unprecedented.
They’d win about 45 seats at the next election if that trend continued.
And I can’t see the war on protesters and policy of removing the right to strike playing particularly well with the red wall.
This lot are acting like they know the game is up, and they’re ramming through as much far-right toxicity as the can before the ship goes down
They are acting like they expect or even want to lose and just piling enough shite up to blame on their replacements or even dare them not to repeal - remember how much anti-trades union stuff Blair didn't get rid of and their back track on student fees and privatising rail once they got in? Its almost like they have out foxed Labour before and know if they pile enough shite up some will still be there waiting for them when they get back in.
Anyway - back on topic and in line with the thread Spain are said to be moving to insist on guarantee's before allowing entry such as proving you have enough cash to support yourself for the stay, accommodation for the stay and a return ticket and the gammon are up in arms stirred up by the Mail or Express as predictable - you know the kind of guarantee's we require of them and that the rest of the world ( US, NZ, Aus etc ) require too as third countries.
I am starting to think that despite what we are told most of the 52% who voted had virtually no idea what they were voting for and have buyers remorse over what they have done
Shaelumstash
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It’s absolutely barmy that some are surprised that Freedom of Movement has ended for British people as well as “foreigners”.They are acting like they expect or even want to lose and just piling enough shite up to blame on their replacements or even dare them not to repeal - remember how much anti-trades union stuff Blair didn't get rid of and their back track on student fees and privatising rail once they got in? Its almost like they have out foxed Labour before and know if they pile enough shite up some will still be there waiting for them when they get back in.
Anyway - back on topic and in line with the thread Spain are said to be moving to insist on guarantee's before allowing entry such as proving you have enough cash to support yourself for the stay, accommodation for the stay and a return ticket and the gammon are up in arms stirred up by the Mail or Express as predictable - you know the kind of guarantee's we require of them and that the rest of the world ( US, NZ, Aus etc ) require too as third countries.
I am starting to think that despite what we are told most of the 52% who voted had virtually no idea what they were voting for and have buyers remorse over what they have done
It’s even more surprising that the right wing media think these restrictions on movement have nothing to do with Brexit.
The buyers remorse is only going to get stronger, unfortunately
It's going to be an increasingly xenaphobic period when import controls kick in.It was always planned this way to do nothing and expect everyone else to pick up the pieces. When you have a rabid right press promoting the type of jingosim and gaslighting the public about this on a daily basis its not hard to see how they get away with it.
The hatred of foreigners will reach a new zenith of epic proportions when that happens.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
I fear the hatred of fellow countrymen will reach a zenith in some quarters too. I frequently said that once we voted to leave, we had to go, as to fail to do so would be so incredibly decisive for us as a nation, but the way this is unraveling will prove to be almost as polarising, sadly.It's going to be an increasingly xenaphobic period when import controls kick in.
The hatred of foreigners will reach a new zenith of epic proportions when that happens.
The negative forces this utterly reckless referendum have unleashed are truly a sight to behold and will, quite possibly, be the undoing of this country as a leading nation.
gordondaviesmoustache
Well-Known Member
It’s just as barmy that they’re trying to blame the French for its natural consequences.It’s absolutely barmy that some are surprised that Freedom of Movement has ended for British people as well as “foreigners”.
Gabriel
Well-Known Member
I’ve oft said on here that the U.K. now has a government that has waited generations to be in this position and that it will do everything in its power to ensure that when it ultimately leaves office, it will have deliberately moved the country much further to the right than when it came to power. It knows that the likelihood of it enjoying such a majority anytime soon, perhaps ever, is slim, so it must create the world it wants quickly, even if that means running roughshod over Parliament. Similarly, by pushing the agenda further to the right, it also keeps a sizeable number of the electorate there as well, which strengthens the role of the right in future elections.Did you see the by-election results last month? 30% swings away from the Tories, it’s unprecedented.
They’d win about 45 seats at the next election if that trend continued.
And I can’t see the war on protesters and policy of removing the right to strike playing particularly well with the red wall.
This lot are acting like they know the game is up, and they’re ramming through as much far-right toxicity as the can before the ship goes down
All of this will mean any future Westminster government, irrespective of its hue, will find it enormously difficult to reverse the country’s direction and realign with the EU. Holyrood, post-independence, could reinstate legislation in one fell swoop, but the Westminster parties will never be able to reinstate legislation at the same pace or in the same volume, especially as EU legislation itself changes. England and Wales have set themselves on a particular course and I suspect the rudder is well and truly jammed.
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Gabriel
Well-Known Member
I agree with the first part but am less convinced by the second, at least not at the moment. Such a change of mood and message would go down well with many on here, certainly, but whether it would be as convincing with people who voted Tory in Labour’s key battlegrounds, I’m less sure. The circumstances may yet change to allow Labour to alter its message, but I’ve always said that the next General Election will have three (four if we include Northern Ireland) distinct elections, and with such a majority and boundary changes in its favour, the Conservatives really ought not to be losing it. Theefore, it will take Labour, the Liberal Democrats, and SNP winning their respective elections and depriving the Conservatives of an overall majority if there is to be a change of government.The majority of Scots want to be in Europe so his message does not play well here. Basically he is encouraging Scottish labour voters to vote SNP.
I think we agree that if he continues with this strategy we will see another Tory government. Nobody said it would be easy but if he were more honest around Europe I think he would have a better chance.
M18CTID
Well-Known Member
I think you’ll be surprised how many of us feel the same way. 60+% saying it was a mistake proves that and I know quite a few people who would vote differently if there was another referendum tomorrow. Like @blueinsa I’m happy to hold my hands up on here and own it.Bravo to you mate, seriously.
Takes a big character to stand up publicly and own it.
If more people had the courage to do that, the country would be in a lot better place.
Trouble is, no amount of us standing up and saying this is going to change things because once the vote was cast that’s where public input into the issue effectively ended and it was then up to the politicians to decide what type of Brexit we got. Well, I suppose you could argue that voting Conservative at the last election was also a vote for Johnson’s shitty “oven ready” Brexit deal, and what muddies the waters is that it wasn’t only millions of Leavers who voted Conservative in 2019, but millions of Remainers too. Thankfully, on a personal note I don’t have to stand up and own that one as well because I didn’t vote for them ;)
Gabriel
Well-Known Member
The seams of the United Kingdom have been slowly coming apart for some time, but it’s difficult to see how the divisions in England can be healed. Brexit was fuelled by stoking xenophobia at a time when public services and housing were creaking after decades of underinvestment, yet the irony of that is that those doing the stoking are promising a world of greater internationalisation. That means there is going to be further immigration into the U.K. but now from ‘non-white countries‘ whose cultures are even more distinct than those of say Poland, Lithuania, or Romania. Yet these new immigrants will also need access to the public services and housing, which still haven’t been improved and which are now, post-pandemic, even more chronically underfunded. In the coming years, I fear the divisions will only become deeper and the xenophobia will only become uglier.I fear the hatred of fellow countrymen will reach a zenith in some quarters too. I frequently said that once we voted to leave, we had to go, as to fail to do so would be so incredibly decisive for us as a nation, but the way this is unraveling will prove to be almost as polarising, sadly.
The negative forces this utterly reckless referendum have unleashed are truly a sight to behold and will, quite possibly, be the undoing of this country as a leading nation.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
You may well be right mate. I just have this old fashioned ideal that I like politicians to be honest about what they stand for and what they will do if you vote for them, that they act in the best interest of the country rather than their party. Naive I know.I agree with the first part but am less convinced by the second, at least not at the moment. Such a change of mood and message would go down well with many on here, certainly, but whether it would be as convincing with people who voted Tory in Labour’s key battlegrounds, I’m less sure. The circumstances may yet change to allow Labour to alter its message, but I’ve always said that the next General Election will have three (four if we include Northern Ireland) distinct elections, and with such a majority and boundary changes in its favour, the Conservatives really ought not to be losing it. Theefore, it will take Labour, the Liberal Democrats, and SNP winning their respective elections and depriving the Conservatives of an overall majority if there is to be a change of government.
At a time when the country needs the best possible leadership from its politicians we have the very worst from the Tory party and very ordinary from Labour.
I think you’ll be surprised how many of us feel the same way. 60+% saying it was a mistake proves that and I know quite a few people who would vote differently if there was another referendum tomorrow. Like @blueinsa I’m happy to hold my hands up on here and own it.
Trouble is, no amount of us standing up and saying this is going to change things because once the vote was cast that’s where public input into the issue effectively ended and it was then up to the politicians to decide what type of Brexit we got. Well, I suppose you could argue that voting Conservative at the last election was also a vote for Johnson’s shitty “oven ready” Brexit deal, and what muddies the waters is that it wasn’t only millions of Leavers who voted Conservative in 2019, but millions of Remainers too. Thankfully, on a personal note I don’t have to stand up and own that one as well because I didn’t vote for them ;)
Sadly I did such was my insistence that the vote to leave be acted upon.
An absolute fucking disaster in both votes and one I have certainly learned from.
As you say though, it’s politicians who must carry the can for this absolute shit show and sadly it seems even Labour under Starmer show no sign of trying to reverse the damage done which I find utterly perplexing until I realise that like all other parties and leaders, the billionaire bosses won’t allow it.
Gabriel
Well-Known Member
You may well be right mate. I just have this old fashioned ideal that I like politicians to be honest about what they stand for and what they will do if you vote for them, that they act in the best interest of the country rather than their party. Naive I know.
At a time when the country needs the best possible leadership from its politicians we have the very worst from the Tory party and very ordinary from Labour.
Can we attribute this sentiment to the recent heat? ;-)
The Conservatives are in the apparently comfortable position of being able to preach the same message up and down the breadth of the country, though they know that message falls largely on deaf ears in Scotland. Labour have slowly realised that they are no longer a national party in the same sense and must therefore tailor their message accordingly. The Labour leadership know that ‘ordinary’ might be just enough to win in the north and London even if that message leaves some shifting uncomfortably in their pews.
Its leadership also know how toxic Brexit is as an issue and how people just don’t want to talk about it. The irony of the fact that not talking about it candidly in the first place put the country in this position is not lost on me, but I can understand Labour’s reluctance to take a more definitive stance.
If we step back for a moment and consider what has happened since 2019, it truly is staggering. Most political commentators automatically accepted Johnson’s 2019 victory as giving him a two-term majority, maybe even three. Indeed, Johnson inspired but has now himself expired. Those same commentators, however, can already envisage the next General Election returning a different government. All of that has been achieved with the opposition parties basically doing nothing but being ordinary, so we can start to appreciate why Labour won’t want to change the message on Europe anytime soon.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
Fast forward that Keith gets elected on a 'make Brexit work' mandate. Just how does he do that without compromising some of the promises he is making just now. Then the usual suspects in the media will have him for toast. The country won't heal until it confronts the damage done to itself.Can we attribute this sentiment to the recent heat? ;-)
The Conservatives are in the apparently comfortable position of being able to preach the same message up and down the breadth of the country, though they know that message falls largely on deaf ears in Scotland. Labour have slowly realised that they are no longer a national party in the same sense and must therefore tailor their message accordingly. The Labour leadership know that ‘ordinary’ might be just enough to win in the north and London even if that message leaves some shifting uncomfortably in their pews.
Its leadership also know how toxic Brexit is as an issue and how people just don’t want to talk about it. The irony of the fact that not talking about it candidly in the first place put the country in this position is not lost on me, but I can understand Labour’s reluctance to take a more definitive stance.
If we step back for a moment and consider what has happened since 2019, it truly is staggering. Most political commentators automatically accepted Johnson’s 2019 victory as giving him a two-term majority, maybe even three. Indeed, Johnson inspired but has now himself expired. Those same commentators, however, can already envisage the next General Election returning a different government. All of that has been achieved with the opposition parties basically doing nothing but being ordinary, so we can start to appreciate why Labour won’t want to change the message on Europe anytime soon.
Gabriel
Well-Known Member
If Starmer is in Downing Street, then he will be there because Davey and Sturgeon (perhaps) are keeping him there, which means compromises will have been made, and if the last three years have taught us anything, then it is that manifesto promises are a movable feast. Time is a great healer but the scars from Brexit won’t ever go away.Fast forward that Keith gets elected on a 'make Brexit work' mandate. Just how does he do that without compromising some of the promises he is making just now. Then the usual suspects in the media will have him for toast. The country won't heal until it confronts the damage done to itself.
Saddleworth2
Well-Known Member
They will mate but it might take decades.If Starmer is in Downing Street, then he will be there because Davey and Sturgeon (perhaps) are keeping him there, which means compromises will have been made, and if the last three years have taught us anything, then it is that manifesto promises are a movable feast. Time is a great healer but the scars from Brexit won’t ever go away.
Sturgeons support for Keith will be dependent on the tone of negotiations to realise an independent Scotland.
We are following in the footsteps of our American cousins in this vein. The only difference being we are just a little island off Europe with not much to offer, not the number 1 economic powerhouse. Its sad to watch this unravel in front of our eyes, but that's what they voted for.I fear the hatred of fellow countrymen will reach a zenith in some quarters too. I frequently said that once we voted to leave, we had to go, as to fail to do so would be so incredibly decisive for us as a nation, but the way this is unraveling will prove to be almost as polarising, sadly.
The negative forces this utterly reckless referendum have unleashed are truly a sight to behold and will, quite possibly, be the undoing of this country as a leading nation.