How do we resolve the Brexit mess?

MillionMilesAway said:
Yes, I know that.
But the simple plan has to be
- vote on rejoining. If it passes:
- sort out the details on rejoining that we can get
- vote again.

I think we'll get a reasonable say in the SM actually, I think there is enough pragmatism in the EU to allow that (or will be by the time it happens).
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the sooner it happens the more say we will have. No point in waiting until our economy is the size of Belarus.
 
MillionMilesAway said:
Yes, I know that.
But the simple plan has to be
- vote on rejoining. If it passes:
- sort out the details on rejoining that we can get
- vote again.

I think we'll get a reasonable say in the SM actually, I think there is enough pragmatism in the EU to allow that (or will be by the time it happens).
Click to expand...
The problem with this is that for any prospect of rejoining being possible (never mind realistic) we would need to give up the pound and that happening by the back door would cause untold division and bitterness. It would unquestionably divide our country even further. It wasn’t perfect before 2016, but we had an arrangement with the EU that recognised the inveterate streak of Euroscepticism in this country (England, not the UK) - which is why we kept the pound and had all the opt-outs. It was a pragmatic solution to a challenging problem.

The problem now is that Cameron opened Pandora’s box and has unleashed forces that cannot be contained. I really don’t hold out much hope that this situation can be repaired, at least not for a generation.

We are just going to have to deal with the consequences of this supreme act of national self-harm and make the best of it.

I know I get mocked for this from certain quarters, but I’ve got thick skin and it thereby washes over me: we have completely fucking blown it as a nation.

The way we are respected in the world, our international clout, our standard of living, our ability to look after the weak and vulnerable and to provide free healthcare for all have all been hugely damaged by this vote. A vote that our Prime Minister voluntarily offered to the people to try and suppress the divisions within his party. A vote that was completely unnecessary. And a process that was utterly flawed. Where people were made wholly unrealistic promises that they acted upon to their detriment.

If that isn’t fucking blowing it, then I don’t know what is.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The problem with this is that for any prospect of rejoining being possible (never mind realistic) we would need to give up the pound and that happening by the back door would cause untold division and bitterness. It would unquestionably divide our country even further. It wasn’t perfect before 2016, but we had an arrangement with the EU that recognised the inveterate streak of Euroscepticism in this country (England, not the UK) - which is why we kept the pound and had all the opt-outs. It was a pragmatic solution to a challenging problem.

The problem now is that Cameron opened Pandora’s box and has unleashed forces that cannot be contained. I really don’t hold out much hope that this situation can be repaired, at least not for a generation.

We are just going to have to deal with the consequences of this supreme act of national self-harm and make the best of it.

I know I get mocked for this from certain quarters, but I’ve got thick skin and it thereby washes over me: we have completely fucking blown it as a nation.

The way we are respected in the world, our international clout, our standard of living, our ability to look after the weak and vulnerable and to provide free healthcare for all have all been hugely damaged by this vote. A vote that our Prime Minister voluntarily offered to the people to try and suppress the divisions within his party. A vote that was completely unnecessary. And a process that was utterly flawed. Where people were made wholly unrealistic promises that they acted upon to their detriment.

If that isn’t fucking blowing it, then I don’t know what is.
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I'd like to disagree with that, any of that, but it's just so depressingly accurate.
It's why I went with a black-box approach - the pound will get the Faragista up on their soapboxes, etc - putting a timeframe on it is a waste of time. A generation sounds about right.

Four PMs out of five (May looks like a towering figure amongst them) who have largely abandoned and undermined our international standing for domestic/egotistical benefit. The next govt face immense pain trying to arrest the damage being caused, and that's without actually starting repairs. I'd take the UK in 2030 being no worse on average than now.

It's similar in some ways to the "become a republic" or "reform the House of Lords" discussion. It's all very well changing head of state, but there has to be a valid reasonable replacement in hand before you actually do it.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The problem with this is that for any prospect of rejoining being possible (never mind realistic) we would need to give up the pound and that happening by the back door would cause untold division and bitterness. It would unquestionably divide our country even further
Click to expand...

I think you are spot on - to even be considered to be allowed to re-join we would have to demonstrate it would not be anther 10 - 20 - 40 year run just to rip it all and ourselves apart again. However the pound thing isn't quite right - you have to declare that one day you are looking to adopt the Euro - whilst it need not be a pre-requisite for joining I also think its likely they would make an exception for us and make it a condition of joining.


Which European countries still use their own currency?​

As Croatia becomes the 20th EU nation to adopt the euro, there are still a number of members that haven’t taken this step.

In total, seven EU countries don’t use the euro: Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden.

In these countries, visitors from the eurozone still need to exchange money before they travel. Here’s a list of the currencies they use and some more information about these non-eurozone EU member states.
 
bluethrunthru said:
I think you are spot on - to even be considered to be allowed to re-join we would have to demonstrate it would not be anther 10 - 20 - 40 year run just to rip it all and ourselves apart again. However the pound thing isn't quite right - you have to declare that one day you are looking to adopt the Euro - whilst it need not be a pre-requisite for joining I also think its likely they would make an exception for us and make it a condition of joining.


Which European countries still use their own currency?​

As Croatia becomes the 20th EU nation to adopt the euro, there are still a number of members that haven’t taken this step.

In total, seven EU countries don’t use the euro: Bulgaria, Czech Republic, Denmark, Hungary, Poland, Romania, and Sweden.

In these countries, visitors from the eurozone still need to exchange money before they travel. Here’s a list of the currencies they use and some more information about these non-eurozone EU member states.
Click to expand...
I’m not talking in terms of a precondition I’m talking in terms of persuading other members, all of whom hold a veto, that we are committed enough to rejoining and using the pound as a bargaining chip.

They would definitely not want an equivocal and recalcitrant UK rejoining imo.
 
BlueHammer85 said:
Whilst the sarcasm is mildly amusing it’s also a bit tedious - Brexit is having a serious impact for many people and their livelihoods, it’s not something to constantly downplay.
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It's worse than tedious. It's irritating and childish and makes me think that the poster, who I get on with on other threads, is ultimately a smug and selfish prick.

Some of us, and our businesses and families, have indeed been badly damaged by this. There's nothing funny about it.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
It's worse than tedious. It's irritating and childish and makes me think that the poster, who I get on with on other threads, is ultimately a smug and selfish prick.

Some of us, and our businesses and families, have indeed been badly damaged by this. There's nothing funny about it.
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Apart from my bon mots on the subject, obviously.
 
Didsbury Dave said:
It's worse than tedious. It's irritating and childish and makes me think that the poster, who I get on with on other threads, is ultimately a smug and selfish prick.

Some of us, and our businesses and families, have indeed been badly damaged by this. There's nothing funny about it.
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If he’s true to form you’ll get a like from him for that.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
Was doing a bit of driving yesterday and listening to various presenters on LBC, both right and left.

Christ it was depressing.
So in summary:

Our trading relations with EU is totally fucked making all of us poorer
Our NHS is fucked and will not survive without massive over overhaul
Our Education system is fucked with 30% of teachers leaving last year
Our public transport system is fucked particularly our rail service
Our roads are fucked and becoming the worst maintained and congested in Europe
Our water industry is fucked and will either go bust or turn our precious rivers and seas into open sewers
Our power providers are fucking us. No strategic plan, caught with their pants down when wholesale prices rocket.

Is there anything in the UK (except Manchester City) that is not fucked (and by god they are trying).
The whole thing smacks of a lack of intelligence, a lack of planning, a belief that privatisation is the answer to everything even when you don't oversight it effectively, a lack of investment.........
Meanwhile, Charles receives the Scottish crown jewels in Edinburgh so all is well.
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Because ...... Conservatives
 
MillionMilesAway said:
I'd like to disagree with that, any of that, but it's just so depressingly accurate.
It's why I went with a black-box approach - the pound will get the Faragista up on their soapboxes, etc - putting a timeframe on it is a waste of time. A generation sounds about right.

Four PMs out of five (May looks like a towering figure amongst them) who have largely abandoned and undermined our international standing for domestic/egotistical benefit. The next govt face immense pain trying to arrest the damage being caused, and that's without actually starting repairs. I'd take the UK in 2030 being no worse on average than now.

It's similar in some ways to the "become a republic" or "reform the House of Lords" discussion. It's all very well changing head of state, but there has to be a valid reasonable replacement in hand before you actually do it.
Click to expand...


As Ive posted before ........ the country needs to be on its knees before we have any chance of a vote to rejoin
 
It
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The problem with this is that for any prospect of rejoining being possible (never mind realistic) we would need to give up the pound and that happening by the back door would cause untold division and bitterness. It would unquestionably divide our country even further. It wasn’t perfect before 2016, but we had an arrangement with the EU that recognised the inveterate streak of Euroscepticism in this country (England, not the UK) - which is why we kept the pound and had all the opt-outs. It was a pragmatic solution to a challenging problem.

The problem now is that Cameron opened Pandora’s box and has unleashed forces that cannot be contained. I really don’t hold out much hope that this situation can be repaired, at least not for a generation.

We are just going to have to deal with the consequences of this supreme act of national self-harm and make the best of it.

I know I get mocked for this from certain quarters, but I’ve got thick skin and it thereby washes over me: we have completely fucking blown it as a nation.

The way we are respected in the world, our international clout, our standard of living, our ability to look after the weak and vulnerable and to provide free healthcare for all have all been hugely damaged by this vote. A vote that our Prime Minister voluntarily offered to the people to try and suppress the divisions within his party. A vote that was completely unnecessary. And a process that was utterly flawed. Where people were made wholly unrealistic promises that they acted upon to their detriment.

If that isn’t fucking blowing it, then I don’t know what is.
Click to expand...
It wasn’t Brexit that caused all these things. Our NHS and Social services would be in this mess irrespective. The fault lies squarely with the political party that has overseen our demise. Brexit may have exacerbated things but wasn’t the root cause.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
It

It wasn’t Brexit that caused all these things. Our NHS and Social services would be in this mess irrespective. The fault lies squarely with the political party that has overseen our demise. Brexit may have exacerbated things but wasn’t the root cause.
Click to expand...
Brexit made most problems far worse, except it wasn’t really brexit alone which was voted for.iIt was the particular brexit dreamt up by the conservatives and which wasn’t voted for.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
It

It wasn’t Brexit that caused all these things. Our NHS and Social services would be in this mess irrespective. The fault lies squarely with the political party that has overseen our demise. Brexit may have exacerbated things but wasn’t the root cause.
Click to expand...
Where did I say it was the root cause? I said it made us less able to fund those public services which is plainly axiomatic of a relative reduction in our living standards.
 
Saddleworth2 said:
It wasn’t Brexit that caused all these things. Our NHS and Social services would be in this mess irrespective. The fault lies squarely with the political party that has overseen our demise. Brexit may have exacerbated things but wasn’t the root cause.
Click to expand...
Well of course we know the Tories are the root cause, but a 90% reduction in EU recruits to the NHS seems more than exacerbating things.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Where did I say it was the root cause? I said it made us less able to fund those public services which is plainly axiomatic of a relative reduction in our living standards.
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Sorry if I misread your intent. I guess it was this paragraph that triggered my respon
gordondaviesmoustache said:
The way we are respected in the world, our international clout, our standard of living, our ability to look after the weak and vulnerable and to provide free healthcare for all have all been hugely damaged by this vote. A vote that our Prime Minister voluntarily offered to the people to try and suppress the divisions within his party. A vote that was completely unnecessary. And a process that was utterly flawed. Where people were made wholly unrealistic promises that they acted upon to their detriment.
Click to expand...
made me think you were pinning most on Brexit. For me the root cause is The Tory party.
 
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