Javi Garcia

[Lancet Fluke]

If we had looked purely at stats at the end of last season, we would play Dzeko every minute of every game because the stats "proved" he was far superior to Aguero.

An extreme example to be sure, but it's simply illustrative that some stats mean very little.

As I've said, he's suited to a midfield three and a squad player at that. We won't profit though trying to pin others' failures on him.

Precisely, therefore it is better to trust the judgement of your own eyes when you watch him play and see what he does. And when I watch him I see that he is utterly shit. This whole three man midfield line is bizarre. Of course he's going to be better if he's got more people around him to cover his numerous weaknesses. Garcia can't play in a two man midfield because he is too slow to close people down, can't tackle and doesn't read the game well enough to make up for those limitations. Those limitations are still there in a three man midfield and all it means is that there is someone else there to do his work for him rather than in a two man midfield where there isn't someone else there to do his job. What are we going to do next sign a pub standard defender and start saying, "well he's ok in a 9 man defence."

Surely you're not as simple as this. Different players are suited to different roles. Milner isn't very good centrally in a midfield three. He's much more suited to a flat 4-4-2 when in central midfield because long, diagonal passes are a strength of his. Yaya can only work in as open a midfield as we play if he has several key elements of support, ie a partner with amazing stamina and central defenders who can step up comfortably on the ball. If he doesn't have that, he struggles because he's poor at getting back. See? Different players have different attributes.

I don't know if I am simple, if you think I am that's fine. The point is I do believe this issue is simple because I don't believe he is any better in a three man midfield than he is in a two man midfield. He is obviously less exposed in a three man midfield, his complete and utter ineffectiveness may be less obvious but he as a footballer (imo) does no more and performs no better in a three man midfield. He still can't tackle, he still can't close down, he still doesn't read the game especially well and his passing while tidy enough is still by and large just short sideways and backward balls that any professional footballer should be able to complete. So whilst I agree that if he plays, he needs to be in a three man midfield, I completely disagree that he personally is actually any better in a three man midfield. I completely understand that some players are more suited to different roles because other players have strengths and weaknesses therefore some systems will bring out those strengths and other systems will expose those weaknesses but I don't believe this to be the case with Garcia because I don't think he has any particular strengths. Tell me how you think he excels in a three man midfield, what magnificent qualities does he bring to the game that he doesn't in a two man midfield?

 

[BigOscar]

What he brings to a 3 man midfield is discipline and consistency, that frees the other two to be much more aggressive. He never gives the ball away and he never goes forward, so the other two in there know that he will be back covering and he won't lose it and leave them caught out upfield. He's also always available for a pass, if they need it. This quality is less used by us as in England it's not particularly popular to pass the ball backwards to keep possesion, most teams would rather lose the ball trying something speculative than just knock it back and start over again.

I think the main problem is that he is suited to a very specific system, which we only use about threee times a year, so never actually practice so we aren't particularly adept at it. He's never actually had any run of games in his favoured position at all, as we don't play that way. I'm pretty sure that the fans who slaughter Garcia would have the exact same complaints with Sergio Busquets or probably even Javi Martinez, as neither of them offer much that he doesn't, they just offer it better.

It seems pretty clear that we should move him on if we have no intention of actually playing the Barca style, with a 3 man midfield dominating the ball, as he simply isn't suited to filling in as an all action midfielder and it's unclear how likely he is to succeed even in a midfield 3 when he's only used there every few months. We'd be better off with another midfielder like Fernandinho, who can play either role. Whether we can find a one of the sufficient quality who is willing to just sit on the sidelines most of the time is debatable, but its what we should be aiming for. Anyone suggesting Gundogan must be high, why anyone believes he would leave Dortmund to sit on our bench is beyond me

 

[Lancet Fluke]

What he brings to a 3 man midfield is discipline and consistency, that frees the other two to be much more aggressive. He never gives the ball away and he never goes forward, so the other two in there know that he will be back covering and he won't lose it and leave them caught out upfield. He's also always available for a pass, if they need it. This quality is less used by us as in England it's not particularly popular to pass the ball backwards to keep possesion, most teams would rather lose the ball trying something speculative than just knock it back and start over again.

I don't have any issue with his passing, it's just that his passing alone is nowhere near enough to justify his selection. If Garcia was effective at shielding the defence then passing sideways or backwards would be fine. I don't think him being "disciplined" is enough to justify selection either because whilst he may be disciplined enough to sit in his own half and not go forwards, imo, it still doesn't necessarily mean that he shields the defence. He is too easy to play around because he doesn't have the mobility or urgency to close people down. So although he does sit, it doesn't really allow the other midfielders to bomb forward because actually Garcia isn't protecting the back four at all. Or rather when they do bomb forward thinking Garcia is shielding the back four we get horribly exposed because he can't do the job properly. Garcia is consistent alright but then consistency can mean anything, some players consistently perform to a high level and some players consistently put in 3 or 4 out of 10 performances. I've said it before, since when can merely being a body who is prepared to sit in a particular third of the pitch be enough to get you anywhere near a title challenging team? Surely you still have to be able to carry out a useful role while you are sitting in that area, just existing there and not making a catastrophic mistake can never be enough, surely?

 

[grim up north]

At the end of the day it's down to one persons opinion if he is good enough to play. All the pontificating on here whether player x y z is fucking wank or the best thing since sliced bread is irrelevant but it's fun reading some of our expert opinions. What is blatantly obvious is why some people manage premier league teams and others stack shelves in Tesco and play on their xbox

 

[BigOscar]

What he brings to a 3 man midfield is discipline and consistency, that frees the other two to be much more aggressive. He never gives the ball away and he never goes forward, so the other two in there know that he will be back covering and he won't lose it and leave them caught out upfield. He's also always available for a pass, if they need it. This quality is less used by us as in England it's not particularly popular to pass the ball backwards to keep possesion, most teams would rather lose the ball trying something speculative than just knock it back and start over again.

I don't have any issue with his passing, it's just that his passing alone is nowhere near enough to justify his selection. If Garcia was effective at shielding the defence then passing sideways or backwards would be fine. I don't think him being "disciplined" is enough to justify selection either because whilst he may be disciplined enough to sit in his own half and not go forwards, imo, it still doesn't necessarily mean that he shields the defence. He is too easy to play around because he doesn't have the mobility or urgency to close people down. So although he does sit, it doesn't really allow the other midfielders to bomb forward because actually Garcia isn't protecting the back four at all. Or rather when they do bomb forward thinking Garcia is shielding the back four we get horribly exposed because he can't do the job properly. Garcia is consistent alright but then consistency can mean anything, some players consistently perform to a high level and some players consistently put in 3 or 4 out of 10 performances. I've said it before, since when can merely being a body who is prepared to sit in a particular third of the pitch be enough to get you anywhere near a title challenging team? Surely you still have to be able to carry out a useful role while you are sitting in that area, just existing there and not making a catastrophic mistake can never be enough, surely?

Whenever he's been used in a 3, we've looked far more solid. Regardless of whether his "haters" wish to admit it or not. He doesn't go flying into challenges, charge in to press people or go charging around into the wide areas like De Jong would, as that's not his game. he stays central and tries to cut off the passing lanes and prevent players finding space in front of our defence (which has been a huge problem for us this year in games). He does a job that goes largely unappreciated as he doesn't do any of the things that ar flashy or get you off your seat, but I imagine others love playing with him, as he makes there jobs a lot easier. I agree that this job isn't needed in a lot of premier league games, as most teams are awful in possesion and will just lump the ball long and not even try and find spaces and you can just bully them playing 442, but against better teams this position is crucial.

Against Chelsea, we completely nulified their outstanding attacking midfielders from having any impact at all through the middle, but unfortunately were undone by individual incompetence from Clichy and Hart. But against Bayern, we played without someone in that area and we were completely humiliated. It might not end up being him, but we need someone to do that ugly job in a 3 in the champions league if we are ever going to compete imo, no team will succeed with a midfield as open as ours is, without someone covering that massive hole in front of the defence.

 

[Cobwebcat]

At the end of the day it's down to one persons opinion if he is good enough to play. All the pontificating on here whether player x y z is fucking wank or the best thing since sliced bread is irrelevant but it's fun reading some of our expert opinions. What is blatantly obvious is why some people manage premier league teams and others stack shelves in Tesco and play on their xbox

And I take it that when you are overcharged by the checkout lad at Tescos you just accept it because after all it's his job so he must know better than you.

 

[Lancet Fluke]

At the end of the day it's down to one persons opinion if he is good enough to play. All the pontificating on here whether player x y z is fucking wank or the best thing since sliced bread is irrelevant but it's fun reading some of our expert opinions. What is blatantly obvious is why some people manage premier league teams and others stack shelves in Tesco and play on their xbox

You almost never add a fucking thing to any debate, it's just snidey, sarcastic remarks about other people's opinions or implying that people are somehow stupid for daring to have an opinion even if people are attempting to be constructive in their criticism whilst you seem to have no constructive opinion yourself. I don't know why you even come on here, you're so tedious it is excruciating.

 

[Cobwebcat]

At the end of the day it's down to one persons opinion if he is good enough to play. All the pontificating on here whether player x y z is fucking wank or the best thing since sliced bread is irrelevant but it's fun reading some of our expert opinions. What is blatantly obvious is why some people manage premier league teams and others stack shelves in Tesco and play on their xbox

You almost never add a fucking thing to any debate, it's just snidey, sarcastic remarks about other people's opinions or implying that people are somehow stupid for daring to have an opinion even if people are attempting to be constructive in their criticism whilst you seem to have no constructive opinion yourself. I don't know why you even come on here, you're so tedious it is excruciating.

Hmmm you've spotted that too then. It's a shame as I like to read why posters such as NQCitizen like Garcia even if I don't ultimately agree; but to just post "boring" and offering no opinion other than the manager is always right so who are we to question is bizarre.

There is just no point him being here unless he seems himself as a mod wannabe but even then the mods have opinions of their own that are not always religiously pro everything City.

I just wish he would notice its a forum for opinions and that questioning the ability of a player does not make us anti-city or stupid. At the end of the day we all want what's best for city and it would be very boring if we all agreed how to go about it.

Come on Grim Up North join in and say why you like Garcia it won't make you disloyal....

 

[worsleyweb]

I just scrolled down the last page. Fat too many words to read.

It can be summed up quite quickly.

He's good looking but a bit shit at football.

 

[taconinja]

At the end of the day it's down to one persons opinion if he is good enough to play. All the pontificating on here whether player x y z is fucking wank or the best thing since sliced bread is irrelevant but it's fun reading some of our expert opinions. What is blatantly obvious is why some people manage premier league teams and others stack shelves in Tesco and play on their xbox

You almost never add a fucking thing to any debate, it's just snidey, sarcastic remarks about other people's opinions or implying that people are somehow stupid for daring to have an opinion even if people are attempting to be constructive in their criticism whilst you seem to have no constructive opinion yourself. I don't know why you even come on here, you're so tedious it is excruciating.

Hmmm you've spotted that too then. It's a shame as I like to read why posters such as NQCitizen like Garcia even if I don't ultimately agree; but to just post "boring" and offering no opinion other than the manager is always right so who are we to question is bizarre.

There is just no point him being here unless he seems himself as a mod wannabe but even then the mods have opinions of their own that are not always religiously pro everything City.

I just wish he would notice its a forum for opinions and that questioning the ability of a player does not make us anti-city or stupid. At the end of the day we all want what's best for city and it would be very boring if we all agreed how to go about it.

Come on Grim Up North join in and say why you like Garcia it won't make you disloyal....

Well if you want to go this route, perhaps you should exercise a little fairness and talk about Rammy's posts. They add so much to the discussion.<br /><br />-- Fri Dec 06, 2013 2:16 pm --<br /><br />

Precisely, therefore it is better to trust the judgement of your own eyes when you watch him play and see what he does. And when I watch him I see that he is utterly shit. This whole three man midfield line is bizarre. Of course he's going to be better if he's got more people around him to cover his numerous weaknesses. Garcia can't play in a two man midfield because he is too slow to close people down, can't tackle and doesn't read the game well enough to make up for those limitations. Those limitations are still there in a three man midfield and all it means is that there is someone else there to do his work for him rather than in a two man midfield where there isn't someone else there to do his job. What are we going to do next sign a pub standard defender and start saying, "well he's ok in a 9 man defence."

Surely you're not as simple as this. Different players are suited to different roles. Milner isn't very good centrally in a midfield three. He's much more suited to a flat 4-4-2 when in central midfield because long, diagonal passes are a strength of his. Yaya can only work in as open a midfield as we play if he has several key elements of support, ie a partner with amazing stamina and central defenders who can step up comfortably on the ball. If he doesn't have that, he struggles because he's poor at getting back. See? Different players have different attributes.

I don't know if I am simple, if you think I am that's fine. The point is I do believe this issue is simple because I don't believe he is any better in a three man midfield than he is in a two man midfield. He is obviously less exposed in a three man midfield, his complete and utter ineffectiveness may be less obvious but he as a footballer (imo) does no more and performs no better in a three man midfield. He still can't tackle, he still can't close down, he still doesn't read the game especially well and his passing while tidy enough is still by and large just short sideways and backward balls that any professional footballer should be able to complete. So whilst I agree that if he plays, he needs to be in a three man midfield, I completely disagree that he personally is actually any better in a three man midfield. I completely understand that some players are more suited to different roles because other players have strengths and weaknesses therefore some systems will bring out those strengths and other systems will expose those weaknesses but I don't believe this to be the case with Garcia because I don't think he has any particular strengths. Tell me how you think he excels in a three man midfield, what magnificent qualities does he bring to the game that he doesn't in a two man midfield?

No, I've seen you contribute well to discussions. It's why it's surprising that you're posting such oddly limited opinions on this subject.

As another player stated, he stays in his position and keeps the ball ticking when it's passed to him. He has a good understanding when he's on the same pitch as Yaya and Fernandinho at the same time. Put some of our more loved players in that position and they'll be in the attacking third and we'll be fucked although I suspect some of our fans would like that because it shows "bravery." Of course what some call bravery, I often think of as rank stupidity.