Keir Starmer

[urban genie]

Hmm I am not entirely sure it’s the same as RLB as there’s a legitimate cause to Astor, in that she was the first female MP but then again she was a Nazi ****.

Anyway I hope the civil war continues and Labour is broken up. Then I hope the actual conservatives in the Tories do the same and we can fuck off this this liberal middle ground both sit in.

Don't want to dwell on this paticular topic as the thread seems to have moved on but Astor wasn't the first, Constance Markievicz was the first women MP and as such Astor needs no adulation as her personal and political opinions were vile.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

The obsession many in the Labour party have with Israel/Palestine is down to
this theory of Jews controlling the world, there can be no other logical explanation for
it. Israel, a tiny sliver of territory surrounded by hostile states, gets to them, to the exception
of virtually everything else regarding foreign policy. Never is there any condemnation of the
totally abhorrent theocratic hellholes surrounding the place, none of which
enjoy democracy, most of them have vile misogynistic, homophobic, brutal
murderous dictators, but ne'er a peep about them.
Christian persecution is ignored, Tibetans, trodden under by the Chinese, nada,
there are many injustices, but this Israel fixation was what Corbyn and his ilk thought
was important. People have noticed all this, the plethora of Palestinian flags, the murals,
the incessant censures of Israel, and it helped in no measure to the recent GE wipeout.

 

[urban genie]

Pretty much this.

People, in the main,aren't willing to make all the necessary sacrifices to make a better society.

So we compromise.
And moan like fuck at all the stuff we don't like.
Which there seems more of for me now.
;)

What are these compromises we choose to make?

Do you mean ideilogical, social or economic?

 

[urban genie]

The obsession many in the Labour party have with Israel/Palestine is down to
this theory of Jews controlling the world, there can be no other logical explanation for
it. Israel, a tiny sliver of territory surrounded by hostile states, gets to them, to the exception
of virtually everything else regarding foreign policy. Never is there any condemnation of the
totally abhorrent theocratic hellholes surrounding the place, none of which
enjoy democracy, most of them have vile misogynistic, homophobic, brutal
murderous dictators, but ne'er a peep about them.
Christian persecution is ignored, Tibetans, trodden under by the Chinese, nada,
there are many injustices, but this Israel fixation was what Corbyn and his ilk thought
was important. People have noticed all this, the plethora of Palestinian flags, the murals,
the incessant censures of Israel, and it helped in no measure to the recent GE wipeout.

You will find the majority on the left don't even think about the israeli/palestinian issues at all unless one is shelling the other on the news.

It is only prominent because the destabalised middles east is an obssesion with news media and gets far more covereage that the thousands of disputes around the world.

The anti-US factions of the left do concentrate on it because of Americas support for Israel over previous decades.

For generation z and the social media warriors as the middle east has been heavily reported in their lifetime and so a go to conflict to use.

Personaly I am more into the events regarding Autonimous Kurdistan moovement and what has been going on in Chile and south america tbh.

 

[lust overlord]

What are these compromises we choose to make?

Do you mean ideilogical, social or economic?

All of them.

 

[Scottyboi]

It does feel like every time that Labour is discussed here, the debate is closed down and AS takes over the debate. Its counter culture at is most insidious.

It is fucking exasperating, I made a long post on what I think labour should do, it wasn't Corbynite, it wasnt Blairite, it contained no AS because I am not an anti-Semite, yet it was ignored and the debate once again returned to AS.

I don't talk about Israel or Palestine,i have little interest in it, I have no interest in anybodys faith as that is personal to them and I am a believer in freedom of religion, but I do believe nothing is beyond criticism, but you have to allow criticism and counter it, not close the debate down by moving the debate parameters.

It is a sign of how far the Overton window has moved on this country, its been subtle, but its happened over the last 30 years and its happened to such an extent that anything slightly left wing is dismissed as hard left. That's because the Overton window has been dragged that far to the right. The established narrative is we have no money, how will that be paid for. To counter the dragging of the overton window to the right the left has to employ more hard left tactics in bringing it back towards the centre, but it cant, because AS.

This leaves us all in a dangerous place, if the window of acceptability is already on the right, if it is dragged further right it enters the realms of nationalism and there is a growing rise in what is called National Conservatism. National Conservatism can not be described as far right because the overton window has moved so much and National Conservatism could well be mainstream thinking in no time. AS is a tool that can be used by National Conservatives to cover their tack their rightward. National Conservatism is Known for its cultural protectionism, and what do we have in our midst at the moment, the PM himself making the BLM movement about culture and National Conservatism sees the destruction of statues as being the start of the cultural wars they want, and who defends the statues? the foot soldiers of the National Conservative movement, the DFLA.

I am sure I will be dismissed as a conspiracy crank, that is exactly what National Conservatism wants you to think, it wants debate closed down and it is in reality a counter movement to the Lefts cultural identity movement. You can look up National Conservatism if you want, it is not only here that it is growing, it is becoming more widespread across Europe. Its basics are what you would probably expect from a party like UKIP with a bit of Britain First thrown in for good measure. It is overtly nationalistic but portrays itself as patriotic, I don't mean to be rude here but many do not see the distinction between nationalism and patriotism. Orwell sums it up brilliantly btw.

My point here and its been illustrated over the last few pages is that these new identarian movements are real, its dangerous and it will use any tool at its disposal to achieve its aims. If Labour can be so easily dismissed because of AS as this thread proves then the narrative of National Conservatism becomes increasingly more prevelant.

I am sure now there will be replies of how the left close down debate, like no platforming people, the education departments of the country being full of hard left Trotskyites etc, the banning of Hopkins from twitter, etc etc all being leftist examples of closing down debate. This comes from those associated with National Conservatism and promulgated through, believe it or not the idiotic anti-semitic notion of Cultural Marxism, a term I am sure you all know of now and a term that is now used widely without people understanding its origins. Its origins were in cultural bolshekivism which arose from the Frankfurt and Chicago schools of economic and political thinking. It is from these schools of thinking that arose the right wing ideology of small state free market Hayekism, which was used to counter the social consensus that arose after WW2 when the UK started the NHS, the welfare state etc etc .. These things are anathema to capitalists, they had to fight back and now you cant move in the media for right wing think tanks like the TPA, migration watch, the IEA, etc etc ran by clowns including the odious Toby Young et al.
Now, I have stated there should never be any room in the Labour party for AS, there should be no room in society for any discrimination based on faith or race, but it is being fermented and it is on the rise across all faiths and religions, it has to stop and it has to be fought and I think using AS to close down debate is dangerous.

Make of this what you will, its my honest thoughts on the matter

We are talking about AS as the new Labour leader has had to sack someone it's not like it was brought up for nothing jeez.

 

[Ban-jani]

Don't want to dwell on this paticular topic as the thread seems to have moved on but Astor wasn't the first, Constance Markievicz was the first women MP and as such Astor needs no adulation as her personal and political opinions were vile.

Fair enough.

 

[Metal Biker]

Don't want to dwell on this paticular topic as the thread seems to have moved on but Astor wasn't the first, Constance Markievicz was the first women MP and as such Astor needs no adulation as her personal and political opinions were vile.

Fair enough.

She never sat in the House of Commons, though. Astor was still the first female MP who attended sessions in the House of Commons, which appears the point of the post.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

It does feel like every time that Labour is discussed here, the debate is closed down and AS takes over the debate. Its counter culture at is most insidious. It is fucking exasperating, I made a long post on what I think labour should do, it wasn't Corbynite, it wasnt Blairite, it contained no AS because I am not an anti-Semite, yet it was ignored and the debate once again returned to AS.

You told a blatant lie about the Israelis training the US police force in the techniques used to kill George Floyd. A lie even the original source, Maxine Peake, the Independent (which is a nasty antisemitic rag) and Amnesty US had retracted. It's a lie that demonises the world's only Jewish state.

Yet you chose to propagate it and you then have the nerve to complain that people bring the AS issue up.

 

[ganganvince]

Yet you're on here criticising Starmer for sacking RLB...

Reading the tweets it looks like Reeves was praising Astor for being the first "woman" in Parliament and her role in the Suffragette movement, back in February, before Starmer was leader. It's likely she didn't know, or was ignorant, NOT an excuse RLB can claim when she even admitted she wasn't praising the "whole" article, just 'sentiments' of it.

By the looks of things, hardly anyone kicked up a fuss about her praising of Astor at the time and are only mentioning it now in defence of RLB's sacking at the hands of centrist Starmer (usually followed by comments of him being a "red Tory" and "the centre left"). I'm starting to think people don't really care that Reeves praised a Nazi sympathiser and instead are using the incident as a political football... nice.

RLB shared a sentiment by someone who readily shared an antisemitic conspiracy theory that wasn't true, and then when given a chance to retract it, refused to do so and Starmer's hand was forced. Reeves appears to have praised Astor on the grounds of her being the first woman in Parliament, a suffragette, not for her views on Jews. Reeves was praising a groundbreaking moment of the first female MP from a feminism mindset, ignorant of the reality of the character of Astor (and clearly of the fact that many suffragettes later joined the British Union of Fascists). RLB shared a known antisemitic conspiracy theory and didn't acknowledge it.

I'd still say RLB deserved to go much more than Reeves, who is displaying ignorance rather than malice. If Reeves is given a chance to apologise and denounce Astor, and refuses, then she too deserves to go.

RLB's days were numbered her actions as shadow education minister allowed Boris to ridicule her leader she then slipped her head into a noose not the brightest thing to do.