Keir Starmer

[Churchlawtonblue]

Nothing changes on here, the people were conned, the capitalists are coining it in, the people are suffering terribly, the turkeys have voted for Christmas.
All in all, it sums up the mindset of the Labour party now, and indeed much of
the media. Since the results came in we've had wall to wall Sturgeon on the Beeb, someone about as popular in England as Nish Kumar, and time taken up on Rayner, who's been sacked from whatever job she had and given a made up one, anything to avoid facing up to the truth.

Sure there are some major problems with the way the UK is and has been governed. I don't agree with many things, such as the way big business and very wealthy people get access to Westminster and pay so little tax, the distribution of wealth, healthcare and education. I don't agree with lobbying and MPs doing more than one job. I actually think most MPs regardless of party are doing the job for the wrong reasons IE what's in it for them.

But I don't believe its some big capitalist conspiracy to keep the working classes down trodden. I don't think the media are controlling everything and finally and probably more importantly I don't think the electorate are being conned all the while. There's always room for improvement but as a country I just don't think we compare that unfavourably with many other developed countries as still a pretty good place to live. If your only source of information for the UK was from some posters on this forum you would think we were living off bread and water and under some dictatorship. Starmer's main problem is that most people seem to be reasonably happy with what's been offered and don't really like his all things to all people alternative.

 

[Rascal]

OK not conned, what about openly and brazenly lied too.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

If your only source of information for the UK was from some posters on this forum you would think we were living off bread and water and under some dictatorship.

To be fair to the posters on this forum, they actually represent what Labour has now become, as that's exactly how Labour have been presenting things.
The problem is the populace know the facts, so it's not been an easy sell.
Unless they offer something to the aspirational, instead of painting the country as a racist, poverty stricken nightmare, they'll continue to sink.

 

[Rascal]

To be fair to the posters on this forum, they actually represent what Labour has now become, as that's exactly how Labour have been presenting things.
The problem is the populace know the facts, so it's not been an easy sell.
Unless they offer something to the aspirational, instead of painting the country as a racist, poverty stricken nightmare, they'll continue to sink.

Can you point me to any post where i have called somebody a racist.

The poverty is a fact, foodbanks are not a fiction of the imagination. They exist because of poverty. If you want to do your Comical Ali impression and say nothing to see here, you are just ignoring facts.

 

[stonerblue]

If only i had a triple locked pension. .

 

[hcblue95]

To be fair to the posters on this forum, they actually represent what Labour has now become, as that's exactly how Labour have been presenting things.
The problem is the populace know the facts, so it's not been an easy sell.
Unless they offer something to the aspirational, instead of painting the country as a racist, poverty stricken nightmare, they'll continue to sink.

You think the populace know the facts?

 

[inbetween]

Do you not think that a media that is owned by a few super rich individuals has an undue influence on society. Look at the amount of lets say ...anti immigration headlines in the Daily Mail. They set the agenda.

I have never heard a current Labour cabinet member say people are racist, there was Gordon Browns idiotic faux pas calling that woman a bigot, a nadir perhaps for the Labour Party.

Its funny aint it, Labour members get called antisemitic and me and PB debated this at length.

What the Tories are doing is using culture as a weapon, it has too become economically during Covid it has gone so far to the left on economic policy it is the only way to stay RW. So we get all this statue nonsense, and rewriting of history. Have you ever met somebody who is anti statue? because I haven't.

Politics is in a strange place, brexit has caused huge upheaval in how people see the UK. This is where the media played a huge part by portraying remain voters as Waitrose shopping metro liberals and also by portraying those waitrose metro liberals as believing everybody who voted leave was a racist bigot. The role they played in brexit was enormous and that is obvious from the amount of headlines generated, the anti EU sentiment etc. now it has been achieved they have seen the opportunity to carry on now brexit voters are portrayed as patriots, remain is unpatriotic. This divide is exacerbated by the use of flags and nationalist symbols.

You can say what you want, but the Tories have played the people like a fiddle, that is how the owners of capital stay being owners of capital and increase their share of capital. Meanwhile everyone gets a flag and says yee ha look at us we are free, but they are not free, they are slaves to capital.

I don't dispute that the Tories aren't using this to their advantage however why wouldn't they given it would be politically stupid not to. The Tories know full well that Labour will never find it within themselves to even entertain any notion of patriotism so the Tories can attack them on it freely. It therefore then makes people belief the truth which is seemingly that Labour cannot stand to be patriotic or stand up for British interests.

You've fallen into the same trap that Labour are doing in attacking nationalistic symbols which comes across as saying the symbol of the flag is obscene. The fact is though most people are proud to be British, even today the Royal Family today is still well supported and so many people are happy to see the flag displayed because it isn't and never has been a political symbol.

Look at this tweet from what was a leading member of Corbyn's cabinet standing outside of what should be the home of a bread and butter Labour voter. What will anyone think after seeing this? Will they think that Labour stands for them or their beliefs?

It's just too easy and this continuation of blaming the media and everyone else plays right into Tory hands. What they seriously don't want you to do is to raise the flag, call yourself British and say we want to do things differently to them.

 

[Len Rum]

But I don't believe its some big capitalist conspiracy to keep the working classes down trodden. I don't think the media are controlling everything and finally and probably more importantly I don't think the electorate are being conned all the while.

That's three pretty low bars you're happy to accept there mate!
You don't believe there's a BIG CAPITALIST CONSPIRACY to keep the working classes down trodden - err maybe not but the establishment and capitalism does look after it's own interests where it can maybe at the expense of a country and it's citizens and it's up to Governments to regulate and tax them properly ( like Amazon paying a bit more tax for example).
You don't think the media are controlling EVERYTHING - err maybe not just controlling a lot.
You don't think the electorate are being conned ALL THE WHILE - err maybe not just being conned a lot of the time.
Bit like a Tory punter on here who stated that because there was no WIDESPREAD poverty in Hartlepool that was ok and any criticism of Government was unwarranted.

 

[Len Rum]

I don't dispute that the Tories aren't using this to their advantage however why wouldn't they given it would be politically stupid not to. The Tories know full well that Labour will never find it within themselves to even entertain any notion of patriotism so the Tories can attack them on it freely. It therefore then makes people belief the truth which is seemingly that Labour cannot stand to be patriotic or stand up for British interests.

You've fallen into the same trap that Labour are doing in attacking nationalistic symbols which comes across as saying the symbol of the flag is obscene. The fact is though most people are proud to be British, even today the Royal Family today is still well supported and so many people are happy to see the flag displayed because it isn't and never has been a political symbol.

Look at this tweet from what was a leading member of Corbyn's cabinet standing outside of what should be the home of a bread and butter Labour voter. What will anyone think after seeing this? Will they think that Labour stands for them or their beliefs?

It's just too easy and this continuation of blaming the media and everyone else plays right into Tory hands. What they seriously don't want you to do is to raise the flag, call yourself British and say we want to do things differently to them.

Why u going on about British patriotism?
That's the English flag there!

 

[bluethrunthru]

I don't dispute that the Tories aren't using this to their advantage however why wouldn't they given it would be politically stupid not to. The Tories know full well that Labour will never find it within themselves to even entertain any notion of patriotism so the Tories can attack them on it freely. It therefore then makes people belief the truth which is seemingly that Labour cannot stand to be patriotic or stand up for British interests.

You've fallen into the same trap that Labour are doing in attacking nationalistic symbols which comes across as saying the symbol of the flag is obscene. The fact is though most people are proud to be British, even today the Royal Family today is still well supported and so many people are happy to see the flag displayed because it isn't and never has been a political symbol.

Look at this tweet from what was a leading member of Corbyn's cabinet standing outside of what should be the home of a bread and butter Labour voter. What will anyone think after seeing this? Will they think that Labour stands for them or their beliefs?

It's just too easy and this continuation of blaming the media and everyone else plays right into Tory hands. What they seriously don't want you to do is to raise the flag, call yourself British and say we want to do things differently to them.

Thornberry posted that tweet without comment. Any alleged intention behind it was invented by and ascribed to it by others.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

That's three pretty low bars you're happy to accept there mate!
You don't believe there's a BIG CAPITALIST CONSPIRACY to keep the working classes down trodden - err maybe not but the establishment and capitalism does look after it's own interests where it can maybe at the expense of a country and it's citizens and it's up to Governments to regulate and tax them properly ( like Amazon paying a bit more tax for example).
You don't think the media are controlling EVERYTHING - err maybe not just controlling a lot.
You don't think the electorate are being conned ALL THE WHILE - err maybe not just being conned a lot of the time.
Bit like a Tory punter on here who stated that because there was no WIDESPREAD poverty in Hartlepool that was ok and any criticism of Government was unwarranted.

just my opinion Len.

Can i ask you an honest question how do you see the UK as being a good place to live as a whole? Would you say in your opinion it came ranking wise against other countries in the world, see as there are about 190 countries ? Would you say in the top three, top ten, top twenty, top thirty, top fifty countries in the world or lower? And if Starmer came to power where do you think and expect he would get us to after say 11 years in power?

 

[hilts]

just my opinion Len.

Can i ask you an honest question how do you see the UK as being a good place to live as a whole? Would you say in your opinion it came ranking wise against other countries in the world, see as there are about 190 countries ? Would you say in the top three, top ten, top twenty, top thirty, top fifty countries in the world or lower? And if Starmer came to power where do you think and expect he would get us to after say 11 years in power?

Not meaning to jump in but surely no one can rate a country on behalf of a nation. I would imagine someone well off in California for example might rate the states pretty high but someone in Detroit May think it’s hell on earth.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Not meaning to jump in but surely no one can rate a country on behalf of a nation. I would imagine someone well off in California for example might rate the states pretty high but someone in Detroit May think it’s hell on earth.

its subjective yes, but its also a worthwhile question i believe.

 

[hilts]

its subjective yes, but its also a worthwhile queestion i believe.

Only if you want Len’s personal happiness rating and knowledge of every other country on the planet:-)

For a more extensive research than a single poster check out the world happiness table. If you look at those tables over the last few years and our gdp per capita we are between 13th and 20 something or other. Not disastrous but not much to shout about either.

 

[Len Rum]

just my opinion Len.

Can i ask you an honest question how do you see the UK as being a good place to live as a whole? Would you say in your opinion it came ranking wise against other countries in the world, see as there are about 190 countries ? Would you say in the top three, top ten, top twenty, top thirty, top fifty countries in the world or lower? And if Starmer came to power where do you think and expect he would get us to after say 11 years in power?

Hello mate.
Short answer. But could write a thesis on it!
Good place to live "as a whole" - yes, although "as a whole" doing a lot of lifting and subject always to @hilts comments above.
Top twenty.
Starmer - would expect to lift us five places, maybe into the top ten.
BoJo will probably drag us down five notches with culture and identity wars.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

Hello mate.
Short answer. But could write a thesis on it!
Good place to live "as a whole" - yes, although "as a whole" doing a lot of lifting and subject always to @hilts comments above.
Top twenty.
Starmer - would expect to lift us five places, maybe into the top ten.
BoJo will probably drag us down five notches with culture and identity wars.

Thank you Len, fair honest opions. Its also fair to say on a personal level im a little bit happier tonight. Have a good one.

 

[Rascal]

I don't dispute that the Tories aren't using this to their advantage however why wouldn't they given it would be politically stupid not to. The Tories know full well that Labour will never find it within themselves to even entertain any notion of patriotism so the Tories can attack them on it freely. It therefore then makes people belief the truth which is seemingly that Labour cannot stand to be patriotic or stand up for British interests.

You've fallen into the same trap that Labour are doing in attacking nationalistic symbols which comes across as saying the symbol of the flag is obscene. The fact is though most people are proud to be British, even today the Royal Family today is still well supported and so many people are happy to see the flag displayed because it isn't and never has been a political symbol.

Look at this tweet from what was a leading member of Corbyn's cabinet standing outside of what should be the home of a bread and butter Labour voter. What will anyone think after seeing this? Will they think that Labour stands for them or their beliefs?

It's just too easy and this continuation of blaming the media and everyone else plays right into Tory hands. What they seriously don't want you to do is to raise the flag, call yourself British and say we want to do things differently to them.

I am not attacking patriotism, I am attacking Nationalism.

Orwell nails it

“Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality.”​

I do believe that the Tories are falsely using Patriotism to disguise their Nationalism, they are doing it with the flag nonsense. You do not need a flag to be patriotic, a flag though is a Nationalistic symbol. It is why the likes of the BNP, EDL and the like march with flags, it as Orwell says, to secure power and prestige.

 

[Rascal]

just my opinion Len.

Can i ask you an honest question how do you see the UK as being a good place to live as a whole? Would you say in your opinion it came ranking wise against other countries in the world, see as there are about 190 countries ? Would you say in the top three, top ten, top twenty, top thirty, top fifty countries in the world or lower? And if Starmer came to power where do you think and expect he would get us to after say 11 years in power?

I know you asked Len, but i will answer too

I think the UK is an amazing place to live, we are very fortunate to be citizens of such a great country with an amazing history and we are country noted for our fairness, creativity, our legal system, our health service, our armed forces, our democracy and many many more things as well.

What the RW think is that by me saying this country could be a better country if it alleviated poverty, homelessness, inequalities, I am somehow being negative and running the country down and saying it is an awful place to live.

I want a Government that will make our country not the 20th best, the 10th best, the 2nd best, I want a Government that will make our country THE BEST for everyone in the country whoever they are, whatever there background, whatever their wealth, whatever their social standing.

If a Tory government did that, i would be happy, but they do not do that, they are not concerned with making it the BEST for everyone, they are concerned with making it the best for themselves and for their mates. Because to them power is everything, principle is nothing.

 

[Len Rum]

Thank you Len, fair honest opions. Its also fair to say on a personal level im a little bit happier tonight. Have a good one.

Thanks for that and touché.
Who cares about BoJo and Keith tonight.
We're Champions!
That's my true passion.

 

[whp.blue]

What a waste of fucking time Starmer is. Zero personality and zero policies that i know of.
Admittedly, I rarely go deep into politics these days so i may have missed something.
If Labour are going to break the stranglehold the tories have then Starmer needs to stop being 'average' and start ruffling feathers. Give us some radical ideas or even just ideas that will make Joe public sit up and take notice.
Personally i'd fuck him off and get a younger, sharper, preferably female leader with the balls and brains to take the press, and by association the tories, on

We all know, sadly the only ideas that will come from the Labour party are revamped left wing polices that the electorate have rejected time and time again.
Re-nationalizing the railways was pure self interest from the rail union, if labour was serious surely they should have started with Water, electricity and gas.
Esential services that pensioners need to survive.