Keir Starmer

[Rascal]

1. Communism isn't authoritarian socialism and if you think that's true, I have to question what you know about the subject.

2. Free enterprise, as in the ability to start working as whatever you want and whenever you want, doesn't exist in a fully planned economy. Whether it existed in a Leninist interpretation of socialism, I don't know but that's besides the point as is whether the Tories have practiced Marxist theory.

3. I'm not confusing racial/gender theorists and Momentum types (if that's what you mean by 'liberals'), I think a lot of them are confusing themselves by describing themselves as socialists, which was my point.

4. There is nothing unpatriotic about being socialist and I wouldn't accuse anyone of being unpatriotic by virtue of calling themselves a socialist. There are however a lot of people, in the Labour Party anyway -see the Socialist Campaign Group, who call themselves socialist who are not patriotic in the slightest and hate a lot of aspects of British culture and have a history of siding with Britain's enemies. Maybe they are confusing what Marx said about internationalism with socialism but I think any practical version of socialism would be quite nationalistic if the British state owned the means of production and many of these same people would be the first to reject it.

1/ Communism as practiced by Stalin was authoritarian Socialism.

2/ A fully planned economy can still have room for private enterprise, depends on your interpretation. The workers owning the means of production means they can control the sale of production, its not automatically the states.

3/ Not sure what point you are trying to make

4/ I hate a lot of aspects of British culture but I am patriotic. Which enemies do we side with? Nationalism is the projection of power and belief that that ones own is the best, identification with one's own nation and support for its interests, especially to the exclusion or detriment of the interests of other nations, its the opposite of patriotism. The Socialist International has been going since 1951 that encourages c0-0peration in order to form a Socialist world, quite the opposite to Nationalism.


And anyway has anyone seen Keith? He seems to have disappeared.

I offer a choccy biccy for the next sighting of him.

 

[Rascal]

This isn't about Momentum, I used that as an example to relay what I meant.

Momentum is 'left' Labour in the view of the public, and a Labour party with that as a driving force will be and has been rejected. 'Corbynistas' have tarnished the Labour Party in the view of the moderates, as now apparently being 'moderate' or having 'centrist views' is considered a negative amongst that same 'left' under discussion, and that same 'left' element believes it is championing the same causes as you are. Guilt by association, i'm afraid and it's down to them latching onto you, rather than the opposite. You may not accept them or identify with them, but sadly for you, they are parading around to anyone who will listen that they on on "your" side.

I'm not even making a statement about whether you should or shouldn't vote for Starmer's Labour or whether New Labour was good or bad. The observation is that ont he whole the British voting public supported it and regarded it as something positive and Starmer bringing the Labour Party back to that 'centrist' position would attract more votes than the alternative you and others advocate, but the public has rejected time and time again.

Is Labour a party which can have various policies, or is it meant to be a particular political ideology realised in a political form? You can argue about the public having the 'wrong' idea about what the Labour Party is meant to mean and meant to fight for, but you can do nothing to change their perception of a party and how they view it and if a centrist Labour position is the 'Labour Party' they want to see, they will call for it and vote for it.

You can choose not to vote for such a party, that's not the issue i'm raising. It's becoming tiresome seeing the "why are the Tories still winning!?!" moaning from the same group of people who claim to understand the British public and what they want, when clearly they have either misjudged or completely misunderstood their intentions, if they are criticising the call from the public for Labour to become more centre-left and less authoritarian, even if that does mean they 'don't understand the Labour Party' as is often claimed.

Is it a case of "this is not the Labour Party you want to see", or is it more a case of "the British Public are not the sort of voters we want to attract"? To make changes, you have to be in control, to get in control you have to win over the public. If you're not winning over the public, how do you expect them to vote for your changes?

That is a fair post, but it is also a post that I would expect from a right wing leaning media organisation. They want a Labour party that does not threaten the right so they will push the narrative that Labour must be centrist in order to be in power, but what is the point of power for power sakes if the power you have is not used for what it is supposed to be used for and instead is used to satisfy the right and comfort them that they will be fine. The right never has to satisfy the left or placate them.

Momentum is left labour because the media have pushed the narrative that momentum is left labour but when the right portray people on the left as Communists who are not then its no surprise that they are viewed in such manner. Its all an attempt to make the Labour party safe for the right and safe for the capitalists bank accounts.

I still believe we are a left leaning country where the people are comfortable with left leaning policies and achievements, the NHS, the welfare state, nationalisation still has huge support despite the rights attempts to demonise the left at every turn. The country is not overwhelmingly right wing, the last election proved that on percentage vote, but according to the media we are a right wing country. I think that is bollox and that we need a left wing government, first of all though we need to move the overton window leftwards and Corbyn did that for all his faults and now Keith has decided to stop doing that and kow tow to the capitalists once again, wasting the years of opposition and splitting the party in the process.

 

[blueinsa]

I still believe we are a left leaning country where the people are comfortable with left leaning policies and achievements, the NHS, the welfare state

Completely agree. This is me.

I am however socially conservative and i think that increasingly sums up millions of us that have always voted Labour but the Momentum/Corbyn experiment was just too much.

 

[Rascal]

Completely agree. This is me.

I am however socially conservative and i think that increasingly sums up millions of us that have always voted Labour but the Momentum/Corbyn experiment was just too much.

The UK is a socially conservative country and I don't believe that is at odds at all with Corbynism, it was at odds with liberalism and the liberal leftists who used to be the new Labour acolytes. Corbyn is no Liberal lefty, Starmer is.

 

[blueinsa]

The UK is a socially conservative country and I don't believe that is at odds at all with Corbynism, it was at odds with liberalism and the liberal leftists who used to be the new Labour acolytes. Corbyn is no Liberal lefty, Starmer is.

Momentum brought a hatred into our politics despite the promise of a kinder way. Maybe that's social media to blame but you was either with them 100% or you was the enemy. We then have the woke folk, the #fbpe lot, the anti-Semites.

Starmer? Another fence sitter. Another off the production line who will pat workers on the head and tell them how bad things are, how shit their life is, how it will all change if they vote labour.

It won't work anymore.

Politics is broken in the UK. Honestly I blame social media for it. We are in a very dark place.

 

[Rascal]

Momentum brought a hatred into our politics despite the promise of a kinder way. Maybe that's social media to blame but you was either with them 100% or you was the enemy. We then have the woke folk, the #fbpe lot, the anti-Semites.

Starmer? Another fence sitter. Another off the production line who will pat workers on the head and tell them how bad things are, how shit their life is, how it will all change if they vote labour.

It won't work anymore.

Politics is broken in the UK. Honestly I blame social media for it. We are in a very dark place.

What Social media has done is amplify the outrage and promote the "anti" political positions. By that I mean it has given the "anti" a much larger voice than ever before. It has also extended the political lexicon, words such as woke, virtue signaller and snowflake are social media driven terms. They are also "anti" terms.

It has also helped spread conspiracy theories such as Cultural Marxism, the great replacement theory of Camus and the Coudenhove Kalergi plan. Which I believe to be dangerous wonkery bordering on ethno-nationalism and white supremacy.

I do agree though Social Media has brought us to a very dark place and the truth is often now not what it appears to be anymore.

 

[peoffrey]

What Social media has done is amplify the outrage and promote the "anti" political positions. By that I mean it has given the "anti" a much larger voice than ever before. It has also extended the political lexicon, words such as woke, virtue signaller and snowflake are social media driven terms. They are also "anti" terms.

It has also helped spread conspiracy theories such as Cultural Marxism, the great replacement theory of Camus and the Coudenhove Kalergi plan. Which I believe to be dangerous wonkery bordering on ethno-nationalism and white supremacy.

I do agree though Social Media has brought us to a very dark place and the truth is often now not what it appears to be anymore.

We appear to follow each other on Twitter, nevertheless. I can't find hashtag on this borrowed laptop but WelshIndependence nevertheless.

 

[mat]

There’s only 20 real Labour Party MPs in parliament. Starmer just nodded through the second reading a bill allowing authorities to commit crimes. 20 of his MPs stood up and voted against it.

Red Tory bastard.

 

[Rascal]

There’s only 20 real Labour Party MPs in parliament. Starmer just nodded through the second reading a bill allowing authorities to commit crimes. 20 of his MPs stood up and voted against it.

Red Tory bastard.

That is astonishing, who thought up this bill? Allowing agents of the state to commit crime is a very slippery slope and Keith has nodded it through FFS

 

[Ancient Citizen]

There’s only 20 real Labour Party MPs in parliament. Starmer just nodded through the second reading a bill allowing authorities to commit crimes. 20 of his MPs stood up and voted against it.

Red Tory bastard.

These 20 need to start a new party then, as they are apparently what Labour supporters want, a Corbyn like character should see them storm the next election.

 

[Rascal]

These 20 need to start a new party then, as they are apparently what Labour supporters want, a Corbyn like character should see them storm the next election.

Yes they should.

 

[blueinsa]

There’s only 20 real Labour Party MPs in parliament. Starmer just nodded through the second reading a bill allowing authorities to commit crimes. 20 of his MPs stood up and voted against it.

Red Tory bastard.

If a bill has been passed into law then no crimes are being committed.

It's time you guys started your own party and stood out front, left and center and if you can convince the electorate of your plans you will get the type of society you want.

 

[Northernstorirs]

Firstly, before pro Labour BMers attack my post, I am not a tory. I didn't vote this government in. I do however, strongly believe this government needs a stronger opposition.

A complete shambles from Angela Rayner on GMB, we really deserve better opposition. Shouting down the microphone slating Boris and making personal digs isn't holding the government to account. Rayner didn't even provide one solution to how the country moves forward and tackles the pandemic. There was no rational criticism of what exactly went wrong with track and trace fiasco as she doesn't understand the scenario.

When questioned as to how she will vote later in the week her reply was "I will see how the chief whips want us to vote". You are a shadow deputy lead, show some leadership and tell the public how you intend to vote. She is completely out of her depth and shouldn't be a deputy leader. This is what happens when you put people with no real career credentials in to safe seats and elevate them to shadow ministerial roles they can't handle.

 

[blueinsa]

Firstly, before pro Labour BMers attack my post, I am not a tory. I didn't vote this government in. I do however, strongly believe this government needs a stronger opposition.

A complete shambles from Angela Rayner on GMB, we really deserve better opposition. Shouting down the microphone slating Boris and making personal digs isn't holding the government to account. Rayner didn't even provide one solution to how the country moves forward and tackles the pandemic. There was no rational criticism of what exactly went wrong with track and trace fiasco as she doesn't understand the scenario.

When questioned as to how she will vote later in the week her reply was "I will see how the chief whips want us to vote". You are a shadow deputy lead, show some leadership and tell the public how you intend to vote. She is completely out of her depth and shouldn't be a deputy leader. This is what happens when you put people with no real career credentials in to safe seats and elevate them to shadow ministerial roles they can't handle.

Well said and you don't have to explain yourself pal.

 

[Rascal]

Firstly, before pro Labour BMers attack my post, I am not a tory. I didn't vote this government in. I do however, strongly believe this government needs a stronger opposition.

A complete shambles from Angela Rayner on GMB, we really deserve better opposition. Shouting down the microphone slating Boris and making personal digs isn't holding the government to account. Rayner didn't even provide one solution to how the country moves forward and tackles the pandemic. There was no rational criticism of what exactly went wrong with track and trace fiasco as she doesn't understand the scenario.

When questioned as to how she will vote later in the week her reply was "I will see how the chief whips want us to vote". You are a shadow deputy lead, show some leadership and tell the public how you intend to vote. She is completely out of her depth and shouldn't be a deputy leader. This is what happens when you put people with no real career credentials in to safe seats and elevate them to shadow ministerial roles they can't handle.

Why would I attack you for holding a perfectly reasonable opinion.

The Labour party under Keith is a shambles, he is slowly destroying it, that is why the media love him so much and talk him up.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Holding the govt to account is a great tack, if your answers to their purported incompetency are detailed and outlined, to the satisfaction of the electorate. Unfortunately, just sniping and carping, without providing credible solutions and policies won’t win you any elections.

 

[Len Rum]

Holding the govt to account is a great tack, if your answers to their purported incompetency are detailed and outlined, to the satisfaction of the electorate. Unfortunately, just sniping and carping, without providing credible solutions and policies won’t win you any elections.

Yawn.
Being Mr Reasonable doesn't suit you mate.
Please resume normal service.

 

[Rascal]

Interesting day on Labour twitter with two hashtags trending

#STARMEROUT

#STARMEROUTSTANDING

For a special prize guess which twitter hashtag is being used by those with little EU flags by their names

 

[mat]

Holding the govt to account is a great tack, if your answers to their purported incompetency are detailed and outlined, to the satisfaction of the electorate. Unfortunately, just sniping and carping, without providing credible solutions and policies won’t win you any elections.

The new boundary changes bill and fucking Scotland off when Labour get bummed by this SNP next year will ensure a long Tory reign under another **** protecting themselves and their mates. Starmer offering Tory lite will turn off voters.

 

[hilts]

Firstly, before pro Labour BMers attack my post, I am not a tory. I didn't vote this government in. I do however, strongly believe this government needs a stronger opposition.

A complete shambles from Angela Rayner on GMB, we really deserve better opposition. Shouting down the microphone slating Boris and making personal digs isn't holding the government to account. Rayner didn't even provide one solution to how the country moves forward and tackles the pandemic. There was no rational criticism of what exactly went wrong with track and trace fiasco as she doesn't understand the scenario.

When questioned as to how she will vote later in the week her reply was "I will see how the chief whips want us to vote". You are a shadow deputy lead, show some leadership and tell the public how you intend to vote. She is completely out of her depth and shouldn't be a deputy leader. This is what happens when you put people with no real career credentials in to safe seats and elevate them to shadow ministerial roles they can't handle.

She is appalling that one, horrible women.