Kevin De Bruyne 2016/17

[daztrueblue91]

Thanks for your post mate. It's refreshing to read a post by someone who has actually thought out and considered his post instead of just spewing out nonsense and trying in vain to get a rise out of people.

The thing I'm surprised about is that on the one hand you suggest the first 5 games were our best form of the season, and on the other hand you suggest Silva should be dropped as he slows us down and isn't direct enough.

I agree that the first 5 games is the only time we've looked like Champions. However, for me, Silva was absolutely crucial in all of those games. He was in the form of his life, running the show. West Brom away is the best I've ever seen him play. Everton away he was absolutely outstanding as well.

The whole team functioned around him, it looked like a well oiled machine that was going to cruise to the title. You couldn't have accused Silva of slowing down the play during those first 5 games, surely? It was quite the opposite, he was dictating play, setting the tempo. The reason he was able to do this is because he had real pace and width in front of him.

Navas wide right, Sterling wide left, Kun through the middle. All players with pace, directness, playing on the shoulder. Navas obviously sticks wide and isn't a goal thread. But simply by staying wide he dragged the full back wide, creating space for Aguero to exploit.

Sterling wide left, yes he's direct and doesn't keep possession as well as Navas, but his movement is superb, so dangerous. Again, his pace frightened teams to death, and the link up play between Sterling, Kolarov and Silva early on in the season was superb. The triangle down the left hand side is where our most dangerous play came from. Far from being slow, the pace and directness of Sterling was a major weapon for us.

One of the major reasons that this system worked is because the pace of Navas and Sterling playing wide left the centre of the pitch free for Silva. He had a huge amount of space. If the opposing defensive midfielder tried to mark him, he's simply drop deeper, drop wide right, wide left, wherever the space was, he'd find it.

Recently, with De Bruyne playing as one of the wide players, he drifts inside a lot. This crowds the middle of the pitch, meaning there is less space, and it's very easy to mark Silva out of the game. Look at the Arsenal and West Ham games as an example. The middle is so crowded that there is absolutely no space for Silva to get on the ball and dictate. He can't drop deep or wide right because De Bruyne is already occupying that space.

Also, because we haven't got wide players pushed right on, it makes it very easy for team to just defend deep and narrow. That makes it very difficult for us to find gaps in the back 4, create chances and score goals. It makes it far more difficult for Aguero to find space.

I agree we need to play at a higher tempo, and create more chances. But playing Navas and Sterling wide will do both of those things. Silva can play at whatever tempo he chooses to, but he needs runners. He needs pace in front of him. He needs wide players to stretch back 4s. De Bruyne doesn't do any of those things, but Navas does.

There are periods of games where we need to slow it down, keep possession, make teams chase the ball, wear them out, break them down. De Bruyne simply doesn't have in his game.

I don't disagree that we were awesome in those first 5 games of the season. However, that form was never going to last. It was collective team performances as highlighted by the fact that we had about 10 different scorers in those 5 games. Sooner or later those performances was going to drop and IMO it also coincided with us having to play 2 games per week rather than just adding KDB to the ranks.

I do find it strange that we signed the likes of KDB and Sterling in the summer for the fees we did. There would have been cheaper alternatives who would have been better suited to the keeping possession style. I thought that them coming in would have been a signal that we were going to play a more counter attacking direct style but maybe not.

 

[Deleted member 58678]

I think part of the reason we labor so much to break teams down is because we have players who often move the ball slowly. If we move it faster from defense to offense we will break teams down more often.

By the way DeBryune doesn't lose the ball as much now as he did when he first arrived. I reckon his completion rate would rangebtw 80-83% once he is fully integrated.. Because he will always take more risks. Since the turn of the year his passing has been at 81%. Probably where it would stay. Is he as good as Silva at ball retention? No. does he need to be to play CAM effectively? No.

But in the other poster's point; when we have half of our team pushed forward (and some struggle to get back), yes, he does need to have very high ball retention.

 

[Dax777]

Jesus, you're like the human version of genital warts, no one wants you and you just keep coming back anyway.

I've not "backtracked" at all. I never suggested the team were excellent in the first 25 minutes. De Bruyne being poor and the team being poor are not mutually exclusive. In fact, they are very much related.

You seem like a stats guy. A Football Manager expert. I doubt you have ever played an 11 a side game of football outside in the fresh air. I think you probably prefer the simulated version. Because you see, the stats will only give you so much information. They will not tell you about the intricacies of the game. That's why someone like De Bruyne will be a favourite of someone like you. You don't understand the game, you just understand the stats. So when the stats look good, to you it means he is good. You can't differentiate between a good performance and a good stat, because to you they are one and the same thing.

There are a couple of examples of people with your mindset being involved in football. One was Damian Comolli at Liverpool. Trying to adopt the Moneyball approach to football. I'm sorry to break it to you, but it doesn't work. Football is too fluid, too intricate to only rely on statistics. There isn't a top football club in the world that signs players based solely on stats. Liverpool tried it, and it failed. The way top clubs operate is to trust in the expertise of the people they employ.

You see what a stat won't tell you is that throughout that first 25 minutes De Bruyne often chose the wrong pass. They won't show you that he was constantly static and not moving in to space. They won't tell you De Bruyne wasn't on the half turn when receiving the ball, he wasn't comfortable receiving the ball with his back to goal. They won't tell you that Silva for the last 5 years does as much work off the ball, away from the camera. His movement to get in to space, to give an outlet to the defence and midfield is how many of our attacks start. They won't tell you that De Bruyne was diabolical at doing this for those 25 minutes, he rarely made space for himself, showed feet, was an available outlet.

Feel free to watch your clip to try to look for those things, but unfortunately you can't often see them on videos. That's why scouts attend games, and sit up in the stands. So they can see movement off the ball, pattern of play. They are probably completely alien concepts to you, but that's how football works, particularly at the top level.

So to answer your point, yes I trust my eyes more than the stats. So do the decision makers in football. It's only fanboys and computer nerds who rely on stats alone.

When the facts don't support them, they resort to insult and trying to confuse issues.

1. You backtracked on DeBryune being 'diabolical' in the 1st 25 minutes. It is simply an impossibility. No one without bias can reach such an absurd conclusion


2. I gave you the facts, I gave you the stats, I gave you the link to watch the game yourself again. Nothing supports your claim. You are either lying to make a polenic point, or your memory is false. Either way you are WRONG!!

3. I didn't ask if you believed your eyes. I asked if you believe your memory! Big difference. The game happened months ago, you clearly have a poor recollection. But finding that out will negate your polemic overall point.

You seem incapable of keeping facts from today straight. How can we trust your memory from moths ago?

 

[Shaelumstash]

I don't disagree that we were awesome in those first 5 games of the season. However, that form was never going to last. It was collective team performances as highlighted by the fact that we had about 10 different scorers in those 5 games. Sooner or later those performances was going to drop and IMO it also coincided with us having to play 2 games per week rather than just adding KDB to the ranks.

I do find it strange that we signed the likes of KDB and Sterling in the summer for the fees we did. There would have been cheaper alternatives who would have been better suited to the keeping possession style. I thought that them coming in would have been a signal that we were going to play a more counter attacking direct style but maybe not.

I agree it's unlikely that we could have kept that early season form up. However, we've not played that front 4 since we signed KDB, so we'll never know if those performances were down to the balance of the team being right, or luck, the weather etc. I think we should put it to the test.

I think Sterling was an obvious buy for us. We missed out on Hazard and Sanchez, and we couldn't afford to miss out on another. Yes he's more direct than we are used to, but we need more of that. We need a threat from wide, pace and someone who can get in behind.

De Bruyne is clearly a very talented player. He's got a wand of a right foot, great eye for an early pass, brilliant finisher. I just don't know whether De Bruyne could end up being our Rodney Marsh. A supremely talented footballer, who plays in a slightly different style to the rest of the team. Time will tell, I'm glad we have him but I think we need to start playing the team that works, not the one we wish would work.

 

[PragueBlue]

Any stats on how we've done this season with just Silva (no KDB), with just KDB (no Silva) and then with both playing together?

 

[Dax777]

But in the other poster's point; when we have half of our team pushed forward (and some struggle to get back), yes, he does need to have very high ball retention.

So disappointed , thought i got myself a troll , Yaya Toure has played some really terrible games and has stayed on the pitch , not because he is performing the best , but because he could turn a game in a moment of brilliance , West Ham was a fine example Delph who was arguably our best midfield player and was subbed , when Yaya was contributing next to nothing , MP is relying on the brilliance of individuals to win/ draw games instead of trying to play and win as a team . You do not have to be Albert Einstein to see this , but he also probably new f*ck all about football.

Have you watched the West Ham game since it happened? I ask this because I've come to realize the difference BTW my knowledge and that of many us that I've watched the games multiple times under calm conditions while many are relying on the one time memory.

If you haven't, please do. You see why the above bolded wouldn't be correct.

 

[schfc6]

I think part of the reason we labor so much to break teams down is because we have players who often move the ball slowly. If we move it faster from defense to offense we will break teams down more often.

By the way DeBryune doesn't lose the ball as much now as he did when he first arrived. I reckon his completion rate would rangebtw 80-83% once he is fully integrated.. Because he will always take more risks. Since the turn of the year his passing has been at 81%. Probably where it would stay. Is he as good as Silva at ball retention? No. does he need to be to play CAM effectively? No.

It's fine, it's pretty clear the game escapes you. Pace has nothing to do with breaking teams down if they sit deep.
As I posted earlier see Everton away and home two weeks ago.

My point remains, will never change, a play maker wants to be on the ball as much as possible, dictates play. De Bruyne throughout his career has never shown these qualities.
As I've stated, De Bruyne has many fine qualities, but I just don't see him as a play maker.

Silva is our Iniesta, Inesta doesn't score as many, doesn't create as many as many of his team mates, but they will all tell you how important he is. He is nothing like De Bruyne.

Can De Bruyne be an effective off the striker? A 10, yes, yes he can. But not a play maker. I think the differences between the two are escaping you.

Did you even watch us at home to Everton? Every single point or concern I have raised was painfully evident in that game.
The easiest way for you to understand would be to look at a touch map of both Silva and De Bruyne in a central role.
It will be painfully obvious what I'm talking about.
I'm not nor have I ever said De Bruyne can't play centrally off a striker, but as a traditional Silvaesq not for me.
For De Bruyne to play centrally for us there needs to be wholesale changes thoughout the squad.

 

[Dax777]

But in the other poster's point; when we have half of our team pushed forward (and some struggle to get back), yes, he does need to have very high ball retention.

Sorry mate I messed up my response to you. As a team, we need to have a high ball retention rate. The CAM doesn't necessarily have to. He can't be poor, but he needs not be super.

As for the scenario described above, when we lose the ball, we have to be better retrieving it. One of the Pep qualities I look forward too. But this is neither here nor there regarding the CAM.

DeBryune has a 77% completion rate for the season. 81% for January. As more players return to health, and he gets more playing time with them, they'll understand what he wants to do more and he will get better.

And like I've hinted enough already, 'he is already better now than in his first 2 months' I didn't need to see the #s to know this. But even those back it up.

 

[mad zab]

Once again you've chosen not to read my post.

I specifically asked you if you were basing your opinion on his Wolfsburg performances. It seems you are, well I've already spelled out to you why a number 10 role for Wolfsburg is very different to a number 10 role for City, so the comparison is futile. Feel free to read over those earlier ones again.

I didn't say he wasn't a playmaker. I said he hasn't played many games for City as a playmaker. And the ones where he has, he's been pretty dreadful.

I don't need to read your posts again.

You were the one who said he wasn't a playmaker. Of course my opinion was based on what he has done at Wolfsburg. That is the reason we bought him. Your opinion is based on one game and 25 minutes on another game he played for us. I guess we will see in the long run if he is capable of playing that role with us.

Goodbye!

 

[mad zab]

Exactly creating a totally inconsistent mess. Much like we are seeing this season.

The mess we have is Pelle trying to play all his best players at one time ala Madrid. We should be selecting the best team based on who we play. You obviously have to have a nucleus of a team and then swap players based on the opposition.

For instance against West Ham, I would have gone with Ferny and Fernando in midfield in place of Yaya and Delph, because they give us a stronger base. In attack I would have gone with Raheem instead of KDB, because his pace on the counter would have bore more fruit IMO.