Middle East Conflict

[ChicagoBlue]

When Israel can take hostages (sorry, detain people) at will, the rate of exchange isn't particularly relevant.

Possibly, but it emphasizes the requirement for Hamas to release the hostages and the fact that the Israelis are working towards a solution separate than the common narrative of genocide.

 

[Vic]

You see it on here quite obviously where it seems it's extremely easy to criticise Israel on a daily basis but extremely difficult to find any real criticism of Hamas except from a handful of posters. Some posters stretch to believe that a country can and should make peace whilst a terrorist organisation holds hostages, it's just completely mad.

I still maintain that the current suffering on the part of the Palestinians can be ended tomorrow if Hamas surrenders. Israel would have no choice but to end its war and then it all comes down to diplomacy. This really isn't a difficult concept but it is for some because they would seemingly rather that this armed struggle continues.

The diplomacy is another topic and I would agree with anyone that Israel must be held to account for what came next. However, irrespective I'd say that this diplomacy is much easier than trying to enact peace whilst the bullets are flying.

None of that justifies what you claimed.

Why should any Palestinian make peace with a state that steals their land in order to prevent peace?

 

[Vic]

Has it got better or worse over the last 6 months following 7/10? The Palestinians have not benefited from Hamas and will never benefit from Hamas and currently more than ever are dying. Why is it not a sensible choice to therefore at least remove Hamas from the equation given the circumstances? I'm not interested in the last 70 years, repeating what has already happened makes no difference to how to end the current situation.

I don't see what else works, Israel is under attack at its borders and it probably isn't going to think towards something like a two-state solution right now (if ever). The only way to change that is to remove the aggressors or reduce the power they hold, or hurt Israel's ability to defend itself through sanctions or arms sanctions which is clearly going to an extremely difficult conversation.

If the attacks stop and the violence stops then there's a greater chance of something good happening because the west will be more inclined to pressure Israel to come to the table. The west is however less inclined to do something whilst its ally is effectively at war and even more less so whilst hostages are held in Gaza, the place where a Palestinian state could potentially be formed...

" I'm not interested in the last 70 years..."

I think you've disqualified yourself from any serious consideration of the issues.

 

[Vic]

Possibly, but it emphasizes the requirement for Ganas to release the hostages and the fact that the Israelis are working towards a solution separate then the common narrative of genocide.

What solution is that? Solution to what?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

What solution us that? Solution to what?

All the hostages released.

It might not be Bibi’s desired ultimate solution, but returning them all (alive or dead) undercuts any continuation of hostilities.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

@Vic I see you have decided you are the arbiter of morality and reality on this subject of Israel & Gaza/Hamas, and have staked out your position on where the fault lies.

It has shown me that we will probably never agree on what is being undertaken, what caused it and what might solve it.

Accordingly, I wish you well and hope you find peace in your life, but will resist the temptation to engage further, as it will not provide either of us with good solutions or a resolution.

Take care and be well.

 

[Postman Pep]

The Israeli approach to security is damage limitation

I should have stopped reading at this point

because in truth it isn't really threatened by threats such as Hamas or Hezbollah

Yet Hamas being an existential threat is used as the justification for the ongoing slaughter. You've argued the same point yourself. The bolded bit says it all.

but state supporters such as Iran are a massive threat.

From the not really threatening threats to the 'massive' threats.....

I mean christ, Iran has tried to acquire nuclear weapons so that it can destroy Israel with them.

Change 'can' to 'has the capability to' and you are talking about the rationale all nuclear states use, mutually assured destruction. Which direction do you think those Israeli nukes are targeted?

Support from the west is therefore critical if Israel is going to defend itself and continue to exist.

Yeah because the one thing Israel is lacking here is support from the West ....

I see a strange hypocrisy on here all the time where people say that Palestine should be recognised by the west and a two-state solution etc but what about recognition of Israel?

Again .... the lack of recognition of Israel ....

Will peace and recognition of Israel be part of that conversation? If there was a two-state solution then would Iran come to make peace and finally recognise Israel? I won't hold my breath.

Don't hold your breath just give your fingers a rest ...

No supporter of Palestine gives a damn about the Israeli security situation elsewhere, they couldn't give a damn if Israel was destroyed tomorrow by Iran and this is actually where they forfit their right to argue for peace.

I think this is actually where you have forfeited the right to be taken seriously on this thread

The fact though is there will never be a peaceful solution where Israel exists and lives happily whilst Palestinians continue to be subjected to violence and aggression from Israel.

...... but then again a little bit of editing and you are not that far away.

 

[BayernMan]

 

[Palerider]

The Israeli approach to security is damage limitation because in truth it isn't really threatened by threats such as Hamas or Hezbollah but state supporters such as Iran are a massive threat. I mean christ, Iran has tried to acquire nuclear weapons so that it can destroy Israel with them. Support from the west is therefore critical if Israel is going to defend itself and continue to exist.

I see a strange hypocrisy on here all the time where people say that Palestine should be recognised by the west and a two-state solution etc but what about recognition of Israel? Will peace and recognition of Israel be part of that conversation? If there was a two-state solution then would Iran come to make peace and finally recognise Israel? I won't hold my breath.

No supporter of Palestine gives a damn about the Israeli security situation elsewhere, they couldn't give a damn if Israel was destroyed tomorrow by Iran and this is actually where they forfit their right to argue for peace. The fact though is there will never be a peaceful solution where Palestine exists and lives happily whilst Israel continues to be subjected to violence and aggression from elsewhere.

I don't know why this isn't clear. Israel does not need to find a political settlement with these bad actors because how can you negotiate peace with people who themselves do not have peace in mind? You're asking for Israel to negotiate a peaceful settlement with a government in Iran which has a stated goal of the genocide of Israel.

The only reason why Iran has not gone further to achieve its goals is because the west has seriously hampered its ability to do so. Iran almost certainly would have acquired nuclear weapons several years ago had it not been for western sanctions and the probable military actions of Mossad.

There is a very good reason why Iran is supporting Hamas and it has nothing to do with the Palestinians. So like I said before decoupling Hamas from Gaza is very important for the Palestinians but it isn't going to happen until Hamas surrenders and then the Palestinian authorities are able to organise away from geopolitical meddling.

Personally I think Israel has definitely gone way too far in Gaza and even the West Bank and they will be held accountable for that in time. However, if you're going to talk of peace then when will the likes of Iran and Yemen be held accountable for the threats against Israel? If we're only talking of peace then this cannot be ignored.

Brilliant couple of posts there mate and pretty much, from reading elsewhere, where every reasonable person stands. Sympathy for innocent Palestinians but appreciation that Israel are facing an enemy that wants all them dead.

 

[robbieh]

Brilliant couple of posts there mate and pretty much, from reading elsewhere, where every reasonable person stands. Sympathy for innocent Palestinians but appreciation that Israel are facing an enemy that wants all them dead.

Complete misunderstanding of history.

The only people who ever wanted 'them all dead' were European.

Quite understandably Palestinians are pissed off that a new country was foisted on them containing people equally hostile to them as they are to the incomers.