Middle East Conflict

Can decide for yourself if you think he is telling lies.


Yet the NYT reporter filed a report earlier from the same place about the same massacre and mentioned no babies.
I'll reserve judgement until further corroboration rather than one soldier speaking to a Netanyahu family owned channel. The first casualty of war is the truth said someone once. What we know to be the truth is horrific enough already without amplifying unsubstantiated claims.

Correction not family owned but according to to an investigation by Haaretz basically served as a mouthpiece for Netanyahu.
 
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It’s partially that and partially the demand for every term used to be defined repeatedly to try and determine anti-semitism or Islamophobia.

I keep out of these threads as emotions run high and I would probably use the wrong terminology without intent nor malice.

All the innocent deaths should be condemned by everyone and we should be united by attempts to bring peace talks, compromise and an end to all the futile suffering that happens repeatedly.
BBC Radio yesterday had a programme with both "sides" represented, including the author of a book on "Israelphobia". I think his argument was that criticism of Israel is just antisemitism in another guise but the risk is that the word might get used to try and express opposition to Israel (or rather Israeli policy) but not be antisemitic.

And there's a new series on the Mandates in the middle East.

I'll try and find links on BBC Sounds.
 
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Yet the NYT reporter filed a report earlier from the same place about the same massacre and mentioned no babies.
I'll reserve judgement until further corroboration rather than one soldier speaking to a Netanyahu family owned channel. The first casualty of war is the truth said someone once. What we know to be the truth is horrific enough already without amplifying unsubstantiated claims.
Can it be amplified much more to be fair? Over the weekend (Hamas) have killed innocent people, paraded naked women’s bodies through the street and executed children..

It’s awful for all the innocent people being caught up in this mess
 
Something I am curious about is what has shaped people's views on this issue.

In my case, it has been reading these publications:

Robert Fisk Pity the Nation, The Great War for Civilisation (am aware of the criticisms that have been made of him, by the way).

Martin Bunton The Palestinian-Israeli Conflict - A Very Short Introduction

As to what compels people to do terrible things to each other, Philip Zimbardo's The Lucifer Effect is very good on that. Also, from Jonathan Haidt's The Righteous Mind I learned that we are a tribalistic species who tend to make instantaneous moral and political judgements and then, only afterwards, come up with the justifications for them.

Brian Orend's The Morality of War is also a superb, very readable introduction to the ethics of armed conflict.

One other book is worth mentioning: Unfollow by Megan Phelps-Roper.

Phelps-Roper grew up in the Westboro Baptist Church but eventually left. This is an extraordinarily perceptive observation that she made retrospectively:

‘Doubt causes us to hold a strong position a bit more loosely, such that an acknowledgement of ignorance or error doesn’t crush our sense of self or leave us totally unmoored if our position proves untenable. Certainty is the opposite: it hampers enquiry and hinders growth. It teaches us to ignore evidence that contradicts our ideas, and encourages us to defend our position at all costs, even as it reveals itself as indefensible. Certainty sees compromise as weak, hypocritical, evil, suppressing empathy and allowing us to justify inflicting horrible pain on others.’

This immediately puts me in mind of organisations like Hamas. Their certainty comes from their view that everything they do is mandated, even commanded by God.

But, thinking of characters like Netanyahu and Putin, secular ideologies can also be construed in exactly this way.

As to where to go next, it would be these three books. Already have the first two but am thinking of also acquiring Shlaim's history.

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Yet the NYT reporter filed a report earlier from the same place about the same massacre and mentioned no babies.
I'll reserve judgement until further corroboration rather than one soldier speaking to a Netanyahu family owned channel. The first casualty of war is the truth said someone once. What we know to be the truth is horrific enough already without amplifying unsubstantiated claims.

CNN reporting it now based off what the IDF are telling them. Saying families were slain ISIS style.
 
Right, yeah, after all the shit people have posted on here over the past few days trying to justify terrorist atrocities - hundreds of women and children murdered in cold blood, others taken hostage, raped, beaten and paraded naked in front of the mob - I’m the one embarrassing myself. And all for suggesting that people in London celebrating Hamas should be called out.

Pathetic.
I’ve condemned the atrocities and had no hesitation in doing so. My view is that Hamas terrorists should be obliterated.

This started with me making a tongue in cheek comment about a TV personality. You made a meal out of it. If being called a clown upset you so much I will take it back.

You’ve accused posters of justifying terrorist atrocities. That’s an extremely serious allegation. Who are they? What did they say? I haven’t noticed them on here but there might have been instances I’ve missed.

I know some posters were called racists for not assuming the burglary of a jewish restaurant was a hate crime. My initial reaction was for the police to assume it was a hate crime but I’m glad I was proven wrong.

I’ve seen several posters express their concern for the Palestinian civilians who are being bombed to oblivion. I hate what’s happening to them too. Religious hate is killing thousands of people.
 
CNN reporting it now based off what the IDF are telling them. Saying families were slain ISIS style.
Based on what the IDF are telling them is why I remain sceptical. There clearly has been a horrific massacre, the NYT reporter confirmed what she saw with her own eyes. No mention of beheadings let alone beheaded babies.
 
Based on what the IDF are telling them is why I remain sceptical. There clearly has been a horrific massacre, the NYT reporter confirmed what she saw with her own eyes. No mention of beheadings let alone beheaded babies.

I'm sure I will see you keeping up the same energy and being eager to debunk when Hamas post stuff.
 
Yes terrible behaviour if that was what was going on and the police should have banged them up, as I said.

I haven’t seen these posts which have led to people being accused of being terrorist sympathisers. There was a few posts about sympathisers in the last quarter of an hour and I think the forum has a right to know if something very unpleasant has been posted.

I can see why posters would be upset with the interview of Israeli soldier. It was shocking. But I do t see how they links to posts on here.

I think posters who have said they sympathise with Palestinian civilians have took a lot of abuse. For me it’s easy to be upset by the killing of Israelis and Palestinian civilians
 
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Can decide for yourself if you think he is telling lies.


Interesting that the BBC has this as their headline as fact, but then says in the text that their only source is the word of an Israeli general. Reuters claim that there were dead Hamas militants and 'Israeli residents.' I'm not saying he's necessarily lying, but you'd think professional BBC journalists would know better than the basically reprint the claims of a single man without corroborating them first. Or at least use quotation marks.
 

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