Middle East Conflict

[Ducado]

As laudible as that sounds, what exactly is the root cause ?

I understand that Israel is intent on getting rid of Hamas, but some of this bombing just looks indiscrimiate, and is only creating more extremists for the future, so it will be a never ending circle of horror, especially when states like iran sponsor it.

Perhaps I should have made myself clearer

The root cause is the failure to give the Palestinians a meaningful contiguous state of their own and allowing the creation and expansion of settlements on land that really belongs to the Palestinians

The Palestinian leadership especially in the West Bank is not immune they are corrupt and ineffective led by an near 80 year old, and it does not help that the suspicion is they have helped Israel capture and jail rivals like Marwan Barghouti it appears for a time that PA and Israel were quite comfortable with the status que

 

[blue b4 the moon]

Well, those that are still alive, I guess. Although, I think you are being overly optimistic at the amount of goodwill that will be left in Gaza.

It is possible, even probable that Israel will dismantle Hamas in Gaza and the price will likely be huge in terms of civilian casualties and the refugee impact on Egypt. But if there is is no sustainable plan for Gaza post Hamas then Israel is just storing up more trouble for the future.

Like it or not, Israel is the dominant power in the region so if it wants a brighter future for itself, it needs to take the lead and facilitate a brighter future for everyone.

From what I've been watching on TV it does look like the IDF are going to move through Gaza from the north.... their only way out will be through Egypt who will block movements.

Going to continue to be nasty as fuck in that area of the world.

 

[Ducado]

Probably not but as someone once said, there will always be good people doing good things and there will always be bad people doing bad things but only religion allows good people to do bad things whilst making them think they’re doing good things.

I think you can say that for any belief system be it religion or politics, communism has far more blood on it's hands than religion ever has, but many of them were convinced that killing millions was helping the cause of humanity anyway I digress

 

[domalino]

Brave guy.



1,200 killed, awful, compared to 9/11 and taking into account their relative populations, this is much worse for Israel.

Incredible story but really illustrates how many very difficult questions Bibi is going to face when the dust settles.

Tel Aviv is 90 mins from the border. How the fuck did a retired grandad get there and rescue his son before the IDF?

 

[trueblue1972]

Incredible story but really illustrates how many very difficult questions Bibi is going to face when the dust settles.

Tel Aviv is 90 mins from the border. How the fuck did a retired grandad get there and rescue his son before the IDF?

A similar story was posted yesterday also , Isreal most certainly were caught with their pants down ,

 

[Vic]

Not really, there is a finite number of resources and we have a dog eat dog mentality. If we weren't using religion as an excuse to kill one another we would just find another.

Yeah, I'm sure the American Indians weren't protesting about Christianity but about killing buffalos.

 

[Vic]

Sorry but I don’t agree. This is a small segment of the Muslim faith that believe anyone that isn’t Muslim deserves to die and to make that happen, they are willing to die themselves as martyrdom is some sort of guaranteed path to heaven for them.

You don’t issue decrees that you will not rest until Israel is wiped off the map and all Jews killed because of a land dispute or settlement if you are in any way normal.

ISIS and radicals like Hamas and co are a scourge in the human race. There is nothing anyone can do to please them, nothing. No negotiations are ever going to change their warped view of the world which they are willing to kill for to see.

Israel and its population are under threat, they have seen first hand what Hamas will do and they have every right to now go all out to destroy them.

They will be doing the world a favour in doing so and they will be doing the vast majority of peaceful and more moderate Palestinians a favour as well.

Good grief.

Do me a favour....

Harrowing pictures show CHILDREN fleeing hellfire in Gaza and Israel

As the bloody conflict enters its fourth day, shocking photos from the ground provide a horrifying insight into the atrocities taking place in both Israel and Gaza.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Ducado]

I’ve stated earlier in the thread, I firmly believe the populations are kept firmly under the thumbs of their terrorist masters who pretend to represent them.

Aid meant to improve the lives of people in Gaza etc, stolen for profit by Hamas and any dissent met with death far quicker than would ever come at the hands of the IDF.

It’s a vicious circle but one ordinary Palestinians also have to try and break. If Hamas is to stay, there will never be any chance of peace.

They should rise up and rid themselves of Hamas, and then what?

You seem to have quite a naive view of the situation or simplistic, the kind of view that thought invading Iraq without a thought for what comes after

 

[franksinatra]

It might but Friday prayers are typical times for outpourings of anger and grief, there will be pictures on the news of huge crowds in Muslim Countries all over the world

The risk goes up the more people die in Garza and the images coming out are not good, but if it starts to look like people are starving to death and lacking basic medical care the bets are off, that's why I am confident (as much as I can be) that America will not allow it to get to that

As horrible as it is there has to be some way for the Israelis to get back at the Hamas but if it starts to get out of hand, the whole region could go up in flames

I hope you are correct about America’s role but I am not sure the sending of military ships and aircraft send the right message in relation to restraint.

Just a terrible situation.

 

[trueblue1972]

I hope you are correct about America’s role but I am not sure the sending of military ships and aircraft send the right message out about restraint.

Just a terrible situation.

I think those are to try and deter anyone else getting involved, such as Hesbulah and other neighbouring countries

 

[Roachy]

Sorry can you go further as I’m slightly unsure of the point you’re making.

The point is the existence of The Hague will offer no comfort or consolation to those suffering. It will be of little consideration to those who will be fighting either.

 

[blueinsa]

They should rise up and rid themselves of Hamas, and then what?

You seem to have quite a naive view of the situation or simplistic, the kind of view that thought invading Iraq without a thought for what comes after

It’s no more naive than to expect Israel having seen its people murdered and butchered to sit back and do nothing other than what they are doing now.

Peace will only come about when moderates on both sides sit around the table.

Israel is capable of voting in moderates but even they won’t sit down with an organisation like Hamas with its stated goals. Hamas hasn’t produced a map that shows what they require for peace other than one in which Israel does not exist.

 

[Ducado]

It’s no more naive than to expect Israel having seen its people murdered and butchered to sit back and do nothing other than what they are doing now.

Peace will only come about when moderates on both sides sit around the table.

Israel is capable of voting in moderates but even they won’t sit down with an organisation like Hamas with its stated goals. Hamas hasn’t produced a map that shows what they require for peace other than one in which Israel does not exist.

Not once have I said that Israel should not respond and sit back, but organisations like Hamas are only created out of hopelessness and poverty

 

[Ducado]

I hope you are correct about America’s role but I am not sure the sending of military ships and aircraft send the right message in relation to restraint.

Just a terrible situation.

It's a symbolic gesture, I honestly believe that the americans will do anything not to get sucked into a Middle East war

 

[inbetween]

They should rise up and rid themselves of Hamas, and then what?

You seem to have quite a naive view of the situation or simplistic, the kind of view that thought invading Iraq without a thought for what comes after

The problem with Hamas is they're a religious terrorist organisation. Many in Palestine will support Hamas because they feel it as a religious duty but that's how terrorists take advantage. Combating Israel is part and parcel of their mission and that fight goes beyond trying to return land grabs.

The only way Palestinians will be free is if it gains some form of calm and preferably democratic government which puts the Palestinian people first. That government will then need to negotiate a future with Israel, preferably two states which live harmoniously in that region. This won't happen because the extremists in Hamas explicitly do not believe that Israel has any right to exist and peaceful compromise isn't in their vocabulary.

Nothing sums it up more than the response from places like Qatar who are housing Hamas. Why don't these countries open their gates, send the Palestinian people to safety and leave the politics of war to Hamas? They won't do it because the Palestinian people are the only tool that Hamas has and ultimately the political structure of Hamas and it's ability to fight would subsequently be wiped out.

 

[blueinsa]

Not once have I said that Israel should not respond and sit back, but organisations like Hamas are only created out of hopelessness and poverty

They are created out of a warped view of Islam by evil men who want nothing but power and control with little to no care about any sort of benefit for the people they pretend to care for.

To think they only want to deliver their people from hopelessness and poverty is simply not believable I’m afraid.

 

[Bluemoon_420]

 

[Brightwell’s left peg]

That ideology comes from putting people in a hopeless pressure cooker situation

Iran is different that are looking for reginal leadership, however extremism will flourish where people have no hope of a better future, we see it here in the West, we don't have to look far look at Northern Ireland, the vast majority of active Provo's were not wealthy middle class Catholics, they were the poor and marginalised who had nothing to live for, and wanted a way to hit back at a system that had put them there, of course they had a cause (just like the Palestinians do) put the cause was just something to hand their hats on

Again we need to look at the route cause of all this and fix it, otherwise we keep going around in endless circles of horror

So we need to fix the old testament then and any reference to the promised land therein?

 

[The blue phantom]

They are created out of a warped view of Islam by evil men who want nothing but power and control with little to no care about any sort of benefit for the people they pretend to care for.

To think they only want to deliver their people from hopelessness and poverty is simply not believable I’m afraid.

He said Hamas is created by Hopelessness and Poverty.

 

[Ithryn Luin]

The root cause is the failure to give the Palestinians a meaningful contiguous state of their own and allowing the creation and expansion of settlements on land that really belongs to the Palestinians

But that statement is not true, many times they have turned down offers of a large state but have been pressured not to accept by various Arab states!

This is a good and interesting watch from the early 70's!