Middle East Conflict

[ChicagoBlue]

That's propaganda. There is zero independent evidence that that has occurred.

What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?

 

[inbetween]

Everybody on here has been vociferous in their criticism of the repugnant Hamas, Hamas are scum as are Likud but one sides crimes are ignored by western governments and they are given carte blanche to behave as they please that's the difference.

Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead? We know they won't do that, so who is at fault really?

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

You have a right to live in Israel, over a century after your ancestors chose to come to the UK rather than go to Palestine. They got here a few years before the UK passed the Aliens Act to keep out Jews from Russia.

Do the Palestinians have a right to return to the land their ancestors left?

Yes, but some are more equal than others.

 

[M16 citeh]

Pure vile racism. Hatred of Palestine and Arabs is clearly deeply embedded in the Israeli physce

 

[philiph20]

Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead?

Well i personally wouldn't believe a word Israel (or Hamas for that matter) say, the hostages need to be released immediately but would Israel keep their part of the 'bargain'?, with Likud calling the shots and the barbaric IDF getting a collective hard-on as the death toll mounts I doubt that, indiscriminate vengeful bombing of civilians will only create a constant stream of recruits not just in Gaza but all over the middle east, it's a never ending vicious circle and while 'Uncle Sam' and their gutless puppets in the west sing from the same hymn sheet nothing will ever change.

The solution isn't bombing the shit out of civilians or kidnapping people just living their lives, imagine if the RAF did the same to Belfast and Derry during the 'troubles' they wouldn't have been allowed to but Israel can, sideline the extremists and talk and don't let the USA be the sole country in the middle during these talks because they can't be trusted on this issue, a combination of countries who are a bit more fair minded hopefully could lead it with the USA involved.

 

[Churchlawtonblue]

What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?

Independent, ie Not IDF and not HAMAS both of which have clear agendas.

 

[The blue phantom]

Independent, ie Not IDF and not HAMAS both of which have clear agendas.

IDF spread as much nonsense and bullshit as Hamas do.

We've just found some guns wedged at the back of an MRI scanner therefore this is Hamas's base.

 

[metalblue]

What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?

The IDF claim

This building has become a central focus of Israel's war, described as a key command centre, even potentially the "beating heart" of Hamas operations.

The IDF evidence

In the brightly lit corridors of the MRI unit, Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan Conricus shows us three small stashes of Kalashnikovs, ammunition and bullet-proof vests - he says they have found around 15 guns in all, along with some grenades.

….

This, Lt Col Conricus said, suggested Hamas were here "within the last few days".
"At the end of the day, this is just the tip of the iceberg," he said. "Hamas aren't here because they saw we were coming. This is probably what they were forced to leave behind. Our assessment is that there's much more."

Hardly reflective of the “beating heart” of operations, perhaps more reflective of weapons of injured fighters seeking medical attention (I’ll refrain from calling them terrorists as we don’t know why they are fighting but I recognise they may be, so use the word fighters with caution). Even if they were using the hospital as cover it’s not screaming “command centre”. Starting to remind me of Blair/Bush and their WMDs and this is looking like IDFs intel is wrong - if this is so wrong how many other “Hamas targets” they have claimed to hit in the past month or so that were actually nothing more than peoples homes or refugee camps?

Your last paragraph is spot on.

 

[Vic]

What do you class as “independent evidence,” Hamas fighters holding the weapons next to the MRI machines?

I’m going to go out on a limb and say the IDF, which is allowing independent news stories, containing IDF-approved video (with identities protected), is being far more transparent than Hamas. I’ll even go so far as to say they’re showing independent news outlets some of the tunnels (which are not a secret) they’ve found.

Or, are you making a pedantic point based on my previous claims that lies and propaganda are an integral tool in the fog of war?

Hard to know who is coming from where with all the agendas, but I’ve watched US, UK and Euro coverage of events in recent days, and read reporting from multiple sources, so I feel like I’m trying to stay informed.

One thing I do know…for certain…there are still hostages that have not been returned. Isn’t that THE war crime that is exacerbating the situation on the ground?

You'd hope for the hostages' sake that it was restraining the IDF on the ground.

 

[goalmole]

Yeah agreed, so recognising reality, what is the solution?

Hamas will only accept a long-term ceasefire if Israel leaves Gaza however a ceasefire does not mean surrender. Israel will not accept this because it just means that Hamas will use that time to rearm and then one day this starts all over again.

I'm not in favour of Israel's methods by the way, I just can't understand how you get rid of Hamas in this physical world that we live in. The sensible person would say well you have to use military force and kill them but isn't that what Israel is doing? Or are people arguing for Israel to merely tone down their use of force? It doesn't sound like it.

Israel has said consistently that this war will end immediately if Hamas surrenders, lays down its arms and releases the hostages. So really why are people calling for a ceasefire which guarantees future violence? Why not call for Hamas to surrender instead? We know they won't do that, so who is at fault really?

The sensible person would say give the Palestinian people either a state where the can govern themselves and determine their own future or give them full citizenship and rights in a single state where Jews and Arabs have equal rights.
Killing Palestinians in Gaza or inflicting apartheid on Palestinians in the West Bank is never going to kill the spirit of resistance in a people who were dispossessed, discriminated against, disenfranchised and are now being massacred.
If the Palestinians don't get to live in peace, neither will the Israelis.