Middle East Conflict

Prestwich_Blue said:
They're fighting a war. You might have noticed that wars tend to be somewhat inhumane. Care to give an example of a humane one?

And I'd say their actions maybe have a sound logic. The worse it gets, the more the pressure to stop and therefore the more need for a longer-term solution involving the international community, which takes some responsibility for Gaza and it's future.
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Sound logic? Killing tens of thousands of people is "Sound logic"?

totally distasteful some of the supporters on (both sides), and I cant listen to them justifying death and murder anymore. Jeez I thought it was just a right wing extremist govn we were dealing with.
 
Tim of the Oak said:
Starmer’s Labour
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That is quite frankly an appalling video and whoever that staffer is they need to be sorted, but everyone knew Israel has always interfered with our politics haven't we?

The next video shows a Hamas leader calling for the death of Israel, not just the occupied lands but the actual removal of it, we are never going to solve it or agree to solve it IMHO.

 
CNN reported, cited from the results of the US Intelligence in identifying the aerial strikes by Israel, and posted on credible media outlets, that almost half (45%) of the 29,000 missiles were unguided (dumb bombs) including Cold War era missile M117.

The conclusion has been confirmed by US Intelligence:

amp.cnn.com

Exclusive: Nearly half of the Israeli munitions dropped on Gaza are imprecise ‘dumb bombs,’ US intelligence assessment finds | CNN Politics

Nearly half of the air-to-ground munitions that Israel has used in Gaza in its war with Hamas since October 7 have been unguided, otherwise known as “dumb bombs,” according to a new US intelligence assessment.
amp.cnn.com amp.cnn.com

www.forbes.com

Nearly Half Of All Munitions Dropped Over Gaza Are ‘Dumb Bombs,’ Report Citing U.S. Intel Assessment Says

Unguided munitions or dumb bombs are more likely to cause collateral damage and civilian deaths when used in heavily populated areas like Gaza.
www.forbes.com www.forbes.com






Quelle surprise…
 
Gorton_Tubster said:
Sound logic? Killing tens of thousands of people is "Sound logic"?

totally distasteful some of the supporters on (both sides), and I cant listen to them justifying death and murder anymore. Jeez I thought it was just a right wing extremist govn we were dealing with.
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The sad fact is that the leaders (and I use the term loosely) on both sides, don't give a shit about how many die. As I've said before, Hamas want as many Palestinian casualties as possible as that (in their view) both increases the pressure on Israel and (as others have said) increases both local and international support for them. I don't see many condemning that, just the Israeli side.

There's possibly another calculation on the Israeli side, which is that they need to Make a statement (for want of a better word) to the Gaza civilians, that this is what being governed by Hamas brings.

I don't support these views in any way if that's what you're implying. I'm just putting myself in the heads of the various warring parties.

You can apply the same logic to Ukraine. Zelensky will calculate that higher civilian casualties will ensure he has the support of the West, with a constant flow of aid and weaponry. And Putin will calculate that the longer the war goes on, the more chance of the West losing interest (which you can see happening now). And that's much less costly (for Russia) when the civilian population is the target, rather than Ukranian forces on the battlefield.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
The sad fact is that the leaders (and I use the term loosely) on both sides, don't give a shit about how many die. As I've said before, Hamas want as many Palestinian casualties as possible as that (in their view) both increases the pressure on Israel and (as others have said) increases both local and international support for them. I don't see many condemning that, just the Israeli side.

There's possibly another calculation on the Israeli side, which is that they need to Make a statement (for want of a better word) to the Gaza civilians, that this is what being governed by Hamas brings.

I don't support these views in any way if that's what you're implying. I'm just putting myself in the heads of the various warring parties.

You can apply the same logic to Ukraine. Zelensky will calculate that higher civilian casualties will ensure he has the support of the West, with a constant flow of aid and weaponry. And Putin will calculate that the longer the war goes on, the more chance of the West losing interest (which you can see happening now). And that's much less costly (for Russia) when the civilian population is the target, rather than Ukranian forces on the battlefield.
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Get the feeling you've put me on mute for some reason, but in case you haven't - I think you're right that this is (part of) the statement they are making. However, if they wanted the people in Gaza to conclude there was a better alternative they might be, for example, making sure to work with the PA in the West Bank, preventing settler violence, putting a stop to evictions in East Jerusalem, ending new settlement construction, and so on. I.e. letting the people in Gaza know that they would get something out of peace.

But they're not doing this in the slightest. Which makes me think the message isn't "we want you to abandon Hamas so that we can all move towards something resembling a fair compromise for everybody" but "we want you to abandon Hamas and also give up all aspirations for your own state and any of the other things you want." This is partly why they have been increasingly talking about how other countries in the wider region should accept a huge flow of Gazan refugees - essentially a forced transfer of the population at gunpoint. (I understand that you're not endorsing the approach, I'm just thinking through the implications of your argument.)
 
mexico1970 said:
That is quite frankly an appalling video and whoever that staffer is they need to be sorted, but everyone knew Israel has always interfered with our politics haven't we?

The next video shows a Hamas leader calling for the death of Israel, not just the occupied lands but the actual removal of it, we are never going to solve it or agree to solve it IMHO.

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Which led to...

 
Mr Kobayashi said:
You can point out what you don't like if you want.

It's not untrue that the land was stolen within living memory and occupied by Jewish settlers.

Someone posted a clip of Mohamed Hadid telling the story of how Jewish people welcomed into their home betrayed the hospitality and stole their home.

If you were in his family's position, would you have agreed to divide the house and share it with the ungrateful settlers or held out for what was "right"?

That's the Hamas position on what they want. I didn't say I agreed with their methods.

I've never hid the fact that I want to see the end of Zionism and Judeo-nazism.
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Anyone can hold any view they want, is that what you are saying? By suggesting they have the right to that opinion you aren't exactly condemning it are you.

He wasn't talking about the settlers he was talking about all of what he describes as Palestine, including the state of Israel.
 
mexico1970 said:
Anyone can hold any view they want, is that what you are saying? By suggesting they have the right to that opinion you aren't exactly condemning it are you.
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Yes he's entitled to hold that view. He's entitled to hold views I agree or disagree with.

mexico1970 said:
He wasn't talking about the settlers he was talking about all of what he describes as Palestine, including the state of Israel.
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It's a legitimate claim to the whole of Palestine. Settlers in that context meant the original settlers in the late 19th and 20th century.

It's not a practical solution currently.

They lack the power to carry it out and they don't have support from allies able to carry it out.

But that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to hold that hardline position.

I favour a secular state with strict laws against religious and ethnic discrimination where Arabs and Jews and other groups live along side eachother.

But if that isn't possible I'd favour an Arab majority state in all of Palestine over the innate barbarism and genocidal policies of the Judeo-Nazi state.

Hamas wouldn't be the right people to have positions of power in either state but that doesn't mean they can't hold legitimate views.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
Yes he's entitled to hold that view. He's entitled to hold views I agree or disagree with.



It's a legitimate claim to the whole of Palestine. Settlers in that context meant the original settlers in the late 19th and 20th century.

It's not a practical solution currently.

They lack the power to carry it out and they don't have support from allies able to carry it out.

But that doesn't mean he isn't entitled to hold that hardline position.

I favour a secular state with strict laws against religious and ethnic discrimination where Arabs and Jews and other groups live along side eachother.

But if that isn't possible I'd favour an Arab majority state in all of Palestine over the innate barbarism and genocidal policies of the Judeo-Nazi state.

Hamas wouldn't be the right people to have positions of power in either state but that doesn't mean they can't hold legitimate views.
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Legitimate views is the part I can't get my head around, as I said earlier in the thread some of the rhetoric around all of this is close to the bone.

The human condition knows no bounds.
 
mexico1970 said:
Legitimate views is the part I can't get my head around, as I said earlier in the thread some of the rhetoric around all of this is close to the bone.

The human condition knows no bounds.
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It's quite simple. Mohammed Hadid's family have a legitimate claim on their house.

Palestinian irredentists have a legitimate claim over the whole of Palestine. They can claim all of it but no more.

Most people would move on and give up the claim over the house and not expend any wasted energy on the claim for the house. But that doesn't extinguish your moral rights. Even if a hostile state as approved the property transfer.

Your rights still exist.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It's quite simple. Mohammed Hadid's family have a legitimate claim on their house.

Palestinian irredentists have a legitimate claim over the whole of Palestine. They can claim all of it but no more.

Most people would move on and give up the claim over the house and not expend any wasted energy on the claim for the house. But that doesn't extinguish your moral rights. Even if a hostile state as approved the property transfer.

Your rights still exist.
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Claim on his house I get, but he's asking for someone else's house too IMHO, nasty piece of work and between him and the Israel leadership everyone living there is fucked.
 
www.middleeasteye.net

Israeli soldiers sing Hanukkah song in Jenin mosque

Footage appears to show Israeli soldiers using a mosque loudspeaker to mock the call to prayer
www.middleeasteye.net www.middleeasteye.net


Murdering innocent people indiscriminately under the guise of "they are terrorists"

Murdering/maiming Journalists reporting in Gaza

Urging the US to appease their genocide actions.

IDF and Netanyahu are acting like the fascist army they are.
 
mexico1970 said:
Claim on his house I get, but he's asking for someone else's house too IMHO, nasty piece of work and between him and the Israel leadership everyone living there is fucked.
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It's was an analogy. He's not asking for anyone else's house.

The house is all of Palestine. Save the territories historically occupied by Jewish, Druze and Bedouin communities, which should have some special protection within whatever form of state they exist in.

Israel isn't a legitimate state. If it was it would have annexed the occupied territories and given equal rights to all, instead of imposing apartheid. But because it was founded on racism it can never abandon that willingly.
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
It's was an analogy. He's not asking for anyone else's house.

The house is all of Palestine. Save the territories historically occupied by Jewish, Druze and Bedouin communities, which should have some special protection within whatever form of state they exist in.

Israel isn't a legitimate state. If it was it would have annexed the occupied territories and given equal rights to all, instead of imposing apartheid. But because it was founded on racism it can never abandon that willingly.
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I replied to your analogy with an analogy, using an analogy doesn't mask the meaning of it. Israel has a right to exist where it is IMO, and it will exist, moderated yes but exist very much so.
 
Meanwhile in Jerusalem, other than around 100 young killed many of which shot at while unarmed.

Israel Forces vs. a photographer.

www.linkedin.com

AbdAlraheem Manassra on LinkedIn: #jerusalem

Israeli occupation forces brutally beating and assaulting the photographer Mostafa Kharouf in Wadi Al Jouz neighborhood in the occupied city of #Jerusalem…
www.linkedin.com www.linkedin.com

Edit:

The Youtube version has been freeze-framed in portions of the video where the brutal bodily harm is visible. Found the unfiltered video on the LinkedIn link instead. a combat suit armed force no-mark, injuring the photographer. Imagine that if it was our Met.

 
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mexico1970 said:
I replied to your analogy with an analogy, using an analogy doesn't mask the meaning of it. Israel has a right to exist where it is IMO, and it will exist, moderated yes but exist very much so.
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Why does Israel have a right to exist "where it is"? (Where is "it"?)

For most of the world, it exists because the UN made it so. But Israel now regards the UN as inconvenient or even irrelevant, especially when it tries to occupy then incorporate other territory.

You might not like the view of some Palestinians of Palestine being "free" from the river to the sea. Do you like the view of Israelis who want from the river to the sea, then chunks of Egypt and Iraq?
 
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