NHS Strike

[law74]

The Taxpayers alliance are notorious for misrepresenting facts. They are further right than most of the RWNJs on here


And im sure Urmston is probably a big fan, because Urmston has failed time and time again to acknowledge that everyone pays tax regardless not just private sector workers.

I have no idea who they even are but I think they just commented on the story, it wasn't their research It says the research was carried out by the Institute of Fiscal Studies (who I equally know nothing about).

The Taxpayers alliance hate all forms of taxation. They believe in a flat of tax across the board and are basically anti tax, anti state, supra Neo Liberals. The IFS are a right wing think tank that was created to investigate taxation issues in the UK but now has a wider remit. IFS reports as most think tank tank reports to be fair are in my opinion guilty of inherent bias

which all fits in perfectly for a daily torygraph article.
As for the regional pay issue, if you are in favour of a race to the bottom (like one poster on this thread) then it would fulfil l your dreams, but in a just and fair country, having the power of collective bargaining means that the public sector wage in some areas may be higher than the average, but it is these wages that keep many private sector companies in business, and as London is already full, we need jobs, wages and people in the region's (one of the reasons why government's tend to transfer jobs to areas of high unemployment)

 

[Rascal]

John O'Connell, director of the Taxpayers Alliance, "

The Taxpayers alliance are notorious for misrepresenting facts. They are further right than most of the RWNJs on here


And im sure Urmston is probably a big fan, because Urmston has failed time and time again to acknowledge that everyone pays tax regardless not just private sector workers.

I wasn't aware an acknowledgement was necessary. Everyone knows all workers pay tax.

NHS workers pay tax because they are like all employed workers.

They sell their labour to their employer.

They are a cost to their employer like everyone else is.

NHS staff are members of the public like anyone else. They are not owners of the NHS any more or less than any other person, and they should not be granted privileges like artificially boosted pay simply because they sell their labour to the NHS rather than any other employer.

As both an employer and a tax levying authority our government has a duty to treat all workers fairly, and not to give unfair benefits to the people it employs. To reward some workers with higher salaries than the market requires just because they happen to work in our health service means taxes go up for all workers but wages only go up for NHS staff. And that is unfair and immoral.

It's about time striking NHS staff stopped claiming that they are some kind of special breed of worker which the rest of us should venerate and shower with money their skills don't warrant. They should realise they are workers like everyone else and accept that they will be paid for their skill levels, no more and no less.

We should freeze NHS pay for 3 or 4 more years and reduce the generosity of the NHS pension scheme. I doubt there'll be any difficulty in staffing the NHS while we do this, as given the economic conditions recruitment and retainment of NHS staff is very unlikely to be a problem.

And still you miss my point "everyone" pays tax regardless of whether they work or not. So stop trying to narrow things down to suite your argument.

As a disabled person who pays tax every day througn one means or another, can you not see that the majority of the people in the country value the NHS and as you have stated you have virtually no knowledge of it you have no idea how valued they are. Your cretinous adherence to market values in such a case is just sheer stupidity. A nurse is valued far more than a lets say, a dry stone waller. Why? because millions may need that nurse not many need a dry stone waller.


You just appear ridiculously jealous of what NHS staff recieve, thats why i asked what you did but dismissed it as irrelevant. To be jealous of a nurse who cleans up piss and shit all day and watches people die, your existence must be pitiful

 

[urmston]

I have no idea who they even are but I think they just commented on the story, it wasn't their research It says the research was carried out by the Institute of Fiscal Studies (who I equally know nothing about).

The Taxpayers alliance hate all forms of taxation. They believe in a flat of tax across the board and are basically anti tax, anti state, supra Neo Liberals. The IFS are a right wing think tank that was created to investigate taxation issues in the UK but now has a wider remit. IFS reports as most think tank tank reports to be fair are in my opinion guilty of inherent bias

which all fits in perfectly for a daily torygraph article.
As for the regional pay issue, if you are in favour of a race to the bottom (like one poster on this thread) then it would fulfil l your dreams, but in a just and fair country, having the power of collective bargaining means that the public sector wage in some areas may be higher than the average, but it is these wages that keep many private sector companies in business, and as London is already full, we need jobs, wages and people in the region's (one of the reasons why government's tend to transfer jobs to areas of high unemployment)

Countries don't prosper by having bloated, inefficient and overpaid public sectors.

They go broke that way.

 

[Rascal]

They go broke that way.

A country with an Independent central bank cannot go broke. Dont be an idiot.

 

[urmston]

The Taxpayers alliance are notorious for misrepresenting facts. They are further right than most of the RWNJs on here


And im sure Urmston is probably a big fan, because Urmston has failed time and time again to acknowledge that everyone pays tax regardless not just private sector workers.

I wasn't aware an acknowledgement was necessary. Everyone knows all workers pay tax.

NHS workers pay tax because they are like all employed workers.

They sell their labour to their employer.

They are a cost to their employer like everyone else is.

NHS staff are members of the public like anyone else. They are not owners of the NHS any more or less than any other person, and they should not be granted privileges like artificially boosted pay simply because they sell their labour to the NHS rather than any other employer.

As both an employer and a tax levying authority our government has a duty to treat all workers fairly, and not to give unfair benefits to the people it employs. To reward some workers with higher salaries than the market requires just because they happen to work in our health service means taxes go up for all workers but wages only go up for NHS staff. And that is unfair and immoral.

It's about time striking NHS staff stopped claiming that they are some kind of special breed of worker which the rest of us should venerate and shower with money their skills don't warrant. They should realise they are workers like everyone else and accept that they will be paid for their skill levels, no more and no less.

We should freeze NHS pay for 3 or 4 more years and reduce the generosity of the NHS pension scheme. I doubt there'll be any difficulty in staffing the NHS while we do this, as given the economic conditions recruitment and retainment of NHS staff is very unlikely to be a problem.

And still you miss my point "everyone" pays tax regardless of whether they work or not. So stop trying to narrow things down to suite your argument.

As a disabled person who pays tax every day througn one means or another, can you not see that the majority of the people in the country value the NHS and as you have stated you have virtually no knowledge of it you have no idea how valued they are. Your cretinous adherence to market values in such a case is just sheer stupidity. A nurse is valued far more than a lets say, a dry stone waller. Why? because millions may need that nurse not many need a dry stone waller.


You just appear ridiculously jealous of what NHS staff recieve, thats why i asked what you did but dismissed it as irrelevant. To be jealous of a nurse who cleans up piss and shit all day and watches people die, your existence must be pitiful

You have resorted to speculation and insult. I'm not surprised. Your arguments are poor and badly set out.

You've even decided to insult those unfortunate people who suffer from cretinism.

Learn to argue a point rather than hurling insults, mocking those with a serious medical condition and speculating about jealous and other negative emotions in others.

And try to sound less bitter.

 

[Anonymous]

I wasn't aware an acknowledgement was necessary. Everyone knows all workers pay tax.

NHS workers pay tax because they are like all employed workers.

They sell their labour to their employer.

They are a cost to their employer like everyone else is.

NHS staff are members of the public like anyone else. They are not owners of the NHS any more or less than any other person, and they should not be granted privileges like artificially boosted pay simply because they sell their labour to the NHS rather than any other employer.

As both an employer and a tax levying authority our government has a duty to treat all workers fairly, and not to give unfair benefits to the people it employs. To reward some workers with higher salaries than the market requires just because they happen to work in our health service means taxes go up for all workers but wages only go up for NHS staff. And that is unfair and immoral.

It's about time striking NHS staff stopped claiming that they are some kind of special breed of worker which the rest of us should venerate and shower with money their skills don't warrant. They should realise they are workers like everyone else and accept that they will be paid for their skill levels, no more and no less.

We should freeze NHS pay for 3 or 4 more years and reduce the generosity of the NHS pension scheme. I doubt there'll be any difficulty in staffing the NHS while we do this, as given the economic conditions recruitment and retainment of NHS staff is very unlikely to be a problem.

And still you miss my point "everyone" pays tax regardless of whether they work or not. So stop trying to narrow things down to suite your argument.

As a disabled person who pays tax every day througn one means or another, can you not see that the majority of the people in the country value the NHS and as you have stated you have virtually no knowledge of it you have no idea how valued they are. Your cretinous adherence to market values in such a case is just sheer stupidity. A nurse is valued far more than a lets say, a dry stone waller. Why? because millions may need that nurse not many need a dry stone waller.


You just appear ridiculously jealous of what NHS staff recieve, thats why i asked what you did but dismissed it as irrelevant. To be jealous of a nurse who cleans up piss and shit all day and watches people die, your existence must be pitiful

You have resorted to speculation and insult. I'm not surprised. Your arguments are poor and badly set out.

You've even decided to insult those unfortunate people who suffer from cretinism.

Learn to argue a point rather than hurling insults, mocking those with a serious medical condition and speculating about jealous and other negative emotions in others.

And try to sound less bitter.

And now hiding behind faux indignation about people hurling insults. Classic defeated debater. You've been shown to have nothing in your locker other than your Breitbart rhetoric and you even agreed you don't compare apples with apples so don't have an informed opinion.

Time to lock thread Mods; this one's done.

 

[Rascal]

You have resorted to speculation and insult. I'm not surprised. Your arguments are poor and badly set out.

You've even decided to insult those unfortunate people who suffer from cretinism.

Learn to argue a point rather than hurling insults, mocking those with a serious medical condition and speculating about jealous and other negative emotions in others.

And try to sound less bitter.

Me mocking people with serious medical conditions? hahhahahhahhahaha

Im not the bitter one who thinks NHS staff are paid to much due to some arbitary free market ideal???


I think you are nutter. plain and simple nutjob.

 

[117 M34]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

 

[urmston]

You have resorted to speculation and insult. I'm not surprised. Your arguments are poor and badly set out.

You've even decided to insult those unfortunate people who suffer from cretinism.

Learn to argue a point rather than hurling insults, mocking those with a serious medical condition and speculating about jealous and other negative emotions in others.

And try to sound less bitter.

Me mocking people with serious medical conditions? hahhahahhahhahaha

Im not the bitter one who thinks NHS staff are paid to much due to some arbitary free market ideal???


I think you are nutter. plain and simple nutjob.

I'm just a person who thinks NHS workers should be paid according to the rules of supply and demand, just like millions of the wonderful, kind and considerate workers who generously fund the NHS are paid.

Like all my opinions, this one is sensible and fair, and carefully crafted after due thought and consideration.

 

[Rascal]

I'm just a person who thinks NHS workers should be paid according to the rules of supply and demand, just like millions of the wonderful, kind and considerate workers who generously fund the NHS are paid.

Like all my opinions, this one is sensible and fair, and carefully crafted after due thought and consideration.

But you are a person that by his own admission has little knowledge of the NHS so it is impossible for you to give a fair and carefully crafted opinion as the NHS is a state owned entity that belongs to the people not the markets.


nd again it is not just workers who fund the NHS ......Why cant you see this?

 

[Anonymous]

You have resorted to speculation and insult. I'm not surprised. Your arguments are poor and badly set out.

You've even decided to insult those unfortunate people who suffer from cretinism.

Learn to argue a point rather than hurling insults, mocking those with a serious medical condition and speculating about jealous and other negative emotions in others.

And try to sound less bitter.

Me mocking people with serious medical conditions? hahhahahhahhahaha

Im not the bitter one who thinks NHS staff are paid to much due to some arbitary free market ideal???


I think you are nutter. plain and simple nutjob.

I'm just a person who thinks NHS workers should be paid according to the rules of supply and demand, just like millions of the wonderful, kind and considerate workers who generously fund the NHS are paid.

Like all my opinions, this one is sensible and fair, and carefully crafted after due thought and consideration.

You proved earlier your opinion is not informed.

If we take midwives for instance, supply and demand is clearly not at work there - hence the discord. The government recognised before the 2010 General Election there weren't enough midwives to deal with the 20% birthrate increase at the time. They pledged funding for an extra 3000 midwives and subsequently, despite birth rates rising further in the meantime, Andrew Lansley reneged on that election pledge and cut the funding. Midwife numbers have increased by 12% in the interim but nowhere near enough to cope with demand.

So, do yourself a favour and stop being a dedicated swallower of Breitbart and desist from posting on a topic you know little or nothing about.

 

[urmston]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

 

[law74]

I'm just a person who thinks NHS workers should be paid according to the rules of supply and demand, just like millions of the wonderful, kind and considerate workers who generously fund the NHS are paid.

Like all my opinions, this one is sensible and fair, and carefully crafted after due thought and consideration.

But you are a person that by his own admission has little knowledge of the NHS so it is impossible for you to give a fair and carefully crafted opinion as the NHS is a state owned entity that belongs to the people not the markets.


nd again it is not just workers who fund the NHS ......Why cant you see this?

That is what the problem is rasc, some people know the price of everything and the value of nothing, and are baffled when their is no private profit to be gained

 

[Anonymous]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

And just like successive governments you will also be proved wrong - see my earlier post, you know the one with the INFORMED opinion.

Too easy with you son. A few facts and your blown out the water.

 

[117 M34]

I will play along.

Urmston, what jobs do you think that a nurse (let's say just a standard run of the mill nurse with no management or extra responsibilities) should have a similar pay to?

Also, which other jobs aren't deserving of a pay rise?

I don't need to know the answers to either of those two questions. The market decides pay rates, not me.

But I do know that the NHS, broadly speaking, has no recruitment problems for most jobs. There is a vast oversubscription for nursing courses, courses for other medical jobs and courses for other public sector jobs like teaching, something which always happens in difficult economic times when the public sector is seen as especially attractive to youngsters seeking a secure and reasonably paid job. There is also high unemployment and high numbers of people who can only find part time work.

In view of these facts I would expect the pressure on NHS pay to be downwards in the next few years, not upwards.

I do agree that nurses and teachers are unlikely to be jobs that will have shortages in the near future. However, there could be a person really enthusiastic and perfect for the job of nurse/teacher and then when they see the pay on offer choose to go down a different career path. Therefore, by your supply and demand theory the patients/children have been deprived of getting the service they deserve.

 

[urmston]

I'm just a person who thinks NHS workers should be paid according to the rules of supply and demand, just like millions of the wonderful, kind and considerate workers who generously fund the NHS are paid.

Like all my opinions, this one is sensible and fair, and carefully crafted after due thought and consideration.

But you are a person that by his own admission has little knowledge of the NHS so it is impossible for you to give a fair and carefully crafted opinion as the NHS is a state owned entity that belongs to the people not the markets.


nd again it is not just workers who fund the NHS ......Why cant you see this?

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

You can't, because we don't need to.

You can probably tell me why you'd personally prefer it if NHS staff were to be showered with other peoples money that needn't be paid in order to recruit and retain them, but you won't be able to tell me why it must be done in purely business and financial terms, because it doesn't.

If you feel like being generous to NHS staff, give them your own cash. Don't expect everyone to pay over the odds for NHS labour just because you want to.

 

[Rascal]

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

.

Because the market is not the ideal way to decide public sector outcomes.

The market can fail and does regularly because its biased towards the monied. A public sector service can never be allowed to fail as the consequences far outweigh some free market enterprise going bust. I couldnt give two fucks if some entreprunner goes broke, its his problem. The NHS is everyones issue. It cannot fail. Its that important to the fabric of the UK.

The NHS is the most important institution in the country, perhaps not to you but to millions it is. If the NHS collapsed it would be catastrophic...... can you really not see that?

 

[metalblue]

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

.

Because the market is not the ideal way to decide public sector outcomes.

The market can fail and does regularly because its biased towards the monied. A public sector service can never be allowed to fail as the consequences far outweigh some free market enterprise going bust. I couldnt give two fucks if some entreprunner goes broke, its his problem. The NHS is everyones issue. It cannot fail. Its that important to the fabric of the UK.

The NHS is the most important institution in the country, perhaps not to you but to millions it is. If the NHS collapsed it would be catastrophic...... can you really not see that?

The simple problem with the free market principle in this case (and in other public sectors) is there isn't a significant alternative employer for nurses and doctors to create the market. It is further hindered by national wage settlements.

The proposed NHS reinstatement bill is worth a look http://www.allysonpollock.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/NHS_Reinstatement_Bill_29Aug14.pdf

 

[pantalon violet again]

Why don't you explain to me why the workers and taxpayers in this country need to pay more than the market dictates for NHS wages?

.

Because the market is not the ideal way to decide public sector outcomes.

The market can fail and does regularly because its biased towards the monied. A public sector service can never be allowed to fail as the consequences far outweigh some free market enterprise going bust. I couldnt give two fucks if some entreprunner goes broke, its his problem. The NHS is everyones issue. It cannot fail. Its that important to the fabric of the UK.

The NHS is the most important institution in the country, perhaps not to you but to millions it is. If the NHS collapsed it would be catastrophic...... can you really not see that?

Market forces or supplying outstanding service ?

Giving joy, being a rock, support , going the extra mile , sharing grief ..guess what ..this things don't scroll across the stock market LCD display, that's the difference chump

It's not 1986 , your porche 911 turbo and red braces are rusting, as is your argument , your a dinosaur and that is the end of it


Edit : shit rasc..didn't mean to quote you mate but Davyhulme area bloke ..sorry

 

[law74]

So by Urmston's ONLY argument, he would have let the banks fail as "market forces decide"?