Our Badge

[hilts]

Yeah, I thought that might be the case, so wanted to make sure you knew both sides of my ancestry were bastards. ;-)

And I agree. My larger point was actually about putting history in to context of today and not ignoring how what has come before has shaped the present and will shape the future, like it has and is doing in Sudan today. We can’t fully understand the origins of these types of conflicts or the rampant exploitation of people around the globe that underpins Western wealth and our way of life (there is no such thing as “cheap” goods and services—someone, somewhere is paying for it) without working to understand what we did in the past to contribute to it.

Of course we have different ethical standards today than in centuries past, but that doesn’t excuse our actions then as ok—or mean they don’t impact the present—any more than a murderer excusing their crimes by saying they were “a different person” when they committed them years ago.

Mine was an argument for realism and accountability, rather than delusional (and dangerous) nostalgia or denial of history that has taken hold in many quarters today.

If anything, it was an argument against red Dipper philosophy, one of the main proponents of revisionist denialism! ;-)

May the ship remain now and forever as a reminder of where we have come from and where we are going.

For one stop saying our, it was other people are who are a long time dead.

The murderer analogy is laughable because they actually did it. We literally are different people who didn't. Bonkers.

 

[hilts]

That was only at the weekends. In general the Vikings just wanted to farm, trade and explore.

I blame late night opening on a Saturday. Bloody pissed up vikings on our high streets looking all Thor like.

 

[SebastianBlue]

For one stop saying our, it was other people are who are a long time dead.

The murderer analogy is laughable because they actually did it. We literally are different people who didn't. Bonkers.

The murderer analogy applies as we are collectively partly responsible for quite bit of suffering around the world today.

Just do a bit of research about how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to my post, as but one of thousands of examples.

Anyway, I keep trying to stop debating this more to avoid having all of my (and your) posts vanish in the night.

So, again, I’ll say we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[hilts]

The murderer analogy applies as we are collectively partly responsible for quite bit of suffering around the world today.

Just do a bit of research about how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to my post.

You are doing it again but instead of our it's now we. I ain't responsible for anything but my own actions. Not a difficult idea to grasp tbh.

 

[SebastianBlue]

You are doing it again but instead of our it's now we. I ain't responsible for anything but my own actions. Not a difficult idea to grasp tbh.

Agreed. Hence why I said research how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to me. Your actions include your decisions to consume and, in turn, support the (at times horrific) exploitation of people around the world (much of it directly as a result of our empire building in the past) that allows you to live the way you do.

As you say, it’s not a difficult idea to grasp.

 

[Citizen of Legoland]

I listen to this podcast, Empire, and it was brilliant. First season about the British in India, the second about the Ottoman empire. A really fascinating and fair-minded discussion.

But what was amazing to me was how much (of the British in India, at least) was unknown to me, and is certainly never taught in schools. And I'm very interested in history... But as a country we simply do not know the facts about our history.

Needing to address that shouldn't be controversial and is quite different from making simplistic judgments about monuments/symbols etc. It's not about blaming anyone in the present, or trying to make people feel guilty, a country should simply know its history, and most don't make an effort to do so beyond really simplistic stories.

“As a country we simply do not know the facts about our history”?

How do you quantify when ‘a country’ knows or does not know enough?

What is ‘enough’?

It sounds more like you have an opinion of ‘the people’ and think on balance that they’re not intelligent enough to remember being told how bad Britain behaved, I certainly was back in the seventies. I wasn’t given the gory details at seven years of age of course but remember the drawings of slave ships and even at such a young age recall figuring out how awful that was. That opinion has only got worse. I go to museums all the time, watch documentaries, discuss with family about what it must have been like during those times and nobody (parents, kids, siblings) ever display pride in what we or other nations did as an empire to other people. Maybe others choose to ignore the past but going off the popularity of museums, exhibitions, books and documentaries we have, I think the British have a huge interest in history.

But there’s more to learn, always. Like my great great grandmother who emigrated from Ireland to find work in the cotton mills of Accrington and who had many descendants who toiled in the same industry to feed their families, right up to my own generation (but likely no more), stories of people getting killed or maimed by dangerous machinery, of walking 3 or 4 hrs to and from work to their shifts and such. And of the millions in Manchester and Lancashire who did the same. That history I am proud of.

And now somebody wants to taint our region’s history because of a misunderstanding of a drawing of a ship.

They can do one.

 

[hilts]

Agreed. Hence why I said research how you are able to have (and afford) the technology you are using to reply to me. Your actions include your decisions to consume and, in turn, support the (at times horrific) exploitation of people around the world (much of it directly as a result of our empire building in the past) that allows you to live the way you do.

As you say, it’s not a difficult idea to grasp.

I didn't build any empires, yet again not difficult to grasp. So why don't you practice what you preach and stop using your tainted technology and leave the rest of us alone.

Maybe wander shoeless around the world apologising for both yourself and every other fucker:-)

 

[SebastianBlue]

I didn't build any empires, yet again not difficult to grasp. So why don't you practice what you preach and stop using your tainted technology and leave the rest of us alone.

Maybe wander shoeless around the world apologising for both yourself and every other fucker:-)

So you aren’t responsible for your actions, then?

 

[give it to gordon]

Just seen the badge of Trafford utd not only has it got a ship on the badge but also the devil.

 

[hilts]

So you aren’t responsible for your actions, then?

No you claimed people are for using technology. I was using your argument against you not agreeing with the notion.
I think we should end it here because whether you are right or wrong your ability to comprehend posts is really poor.