Zin 'messiah' Zimmer
Well-Known Member
Lol
Pep's tactics
- Thread starter Hungarian blue
- Start date
- Status
Lol
Zin 'messiah' Zimmer
Well-Known Member
I'll take our chances, you have to have the ball to win most corners!!!
To compare - that is Bayern from Friday:
What made me wonder was the number of passes played. The possession stats aren't so different - it is just about 4 % less possession for City. What is different is that Bayern played 200 passes more than City- 781 to 587 - in less time as the referee did not add any time. Bremen was not a really big test for Bayern - but as the key players were in training for little more than 2 weeks...
Made me curious about the averages of former years. Seems like City averaged 540 last season, Bayern had 730.
To compare now with Barcelona of the last seasons with about 640 - but they had 714 in 11/12 (the year that Pep always told was too much) and 752 in 10/11.
Just to get the Bayern numbers right - in Bayern's last year before Pep it was 602 - went up to 726 in Pep's first year at Bayern.
Interesting feature I haven't thought about before - but it will be interesting to watch. The more used your players will get to the system the more the faster they will be able to pass and the players will know where to run, too.
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 3,802
Good post. Cheers! Maldeika, I don't think we can read much into these numbers other than that significant part of Pep's work still remains. Patient and well-planned build up from the deep with the lightning fast wing attacks is what made Pep's final year's Bayern so special. The thing is, I doubt Carlo has knowledge to sustain 'Juego de Posicion' style, he has already switched to an old-fashioned counter attacking mode and looked more than vulnerable against a modern pressing team in the Supercup. It will be something mixed this year, and Bayern has a good chance of winning the CL. But once all the remaining bits of Pep's work are finally dissolved, it can be a very rude awakening. IMO Carlo is a slighly outdated coach whos strongest point is using players' individual capabilities, but I'd dare to say your squad is not the best in Europe anymore. Tuchel could continue Pep's legacy, but you've passed on him, unfortunately.
Last edited:
Agree with most points except the one in bold. Carlo will dissolve Pep's style by season end. He said it himself: its easier to train players to counterattack than coach them to play pro-active football. It will be a pity as Bayern was the one big variant under Pep, in a largely one-dimensional league dominated by counterattacking. It wont be the same. But it is still a mighty good squad, still the best in Europe this year. Tuchel is progressive but doesnt get any credit from the German media obsessed with charismatic/goofy characters. Carlo is still a cup coach, so I expect Bayern to again be competing in the latter stages of the CL. I put them & Barca as favorites. But the best chance to win the league for Carlo is this year as the players still retain a lot of Pep's qualities. Yet, I suspect, Carlo could still come undone in the league this year as his game-management is poor and often that makes a difference in away games. BvB is as always looking exciting but I suspect, Tuchel has increased the control aspect of the game this year. Lets see if it affects their attacking bite.
On KdB & Gundogan, I would hv to agree with Jay. When Dinho at RB tucks inside, him and Gundo will interchange their attacking & defensive duties. So defending will still be collective. I doubt Pep will bench Gundo for KdB, unless in some very specific instances or for injury or form reasons. It looks tempting as KdB is still trying to come to terms with #8. But imagine our threat when we hv KdB, Silva AND Gundo playing. Pep is Pep. He prefers going for the jugular, in style! Remember the adage: Attack is the best form of defense! & Pep's own variant: To not take risk is the biggest risk!
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 3,802
Idk why you all are so obsessed with this little trick with 'inside fullbacks'. It's not so significant, and can't change DM's responsibilities. Of course, Pep doesn't need Makelele or Kante, he just doesn't believe in such player type. But a wavebreaker role itself means at least a certain level of physicality and tackling skills. After all, DM playing in Pep's favourite 'La Salida lavolpiana' occasionally becomes a central defender and faces counterattacks in that role. You can't face Cristiano, Bale, Pogba or any other athletic freak with a fragile player with an injured knee. As for the help from the 'inverted full backs', any smart european coach will lure them out with ease, it's not a high algebra. Then there is history. Pep never played with such a soft small DM, why would he start to do that in a brainless, but very physical EPL? And where does this myth of Gundogan being able to play DM come from? As you personally know BvB well, as I can see. I just can't get your arguments.
jay_mcfc
Well-Known Member
Because we're talking week in week out in England. Maybe when we go up against the very best that have Messi, Bale, Ronaldo etc then he will change things slightly. The most important things in the pivot position are intelligence and ball retention/distribution - things that Gundogan has in abundance whereas Fernandinho is a bit more limited. He can do the defensive side of the position, including sitting in at cb when needed but it requires a lot more than that.
You remind me of another poster who put too much emphasis on the pivot role being a DM. We're not saying that Gundogan can play the DM role in most systems but he can play, and is probably the most suited out of all of squad, the pivot in a Pep system. In truth, Gundogan isn't perfect for it but nobody is and that's why for the benefit of the team and to be able to get our best players out there he is the best option.
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 3,802
That was probably me, mate)
No-one is obsessed with inverted full-backs. The point is Pep is flexible with movement and positioning during a game, no matter how he starts on paper! The point in bold: Alonso doesnt hv any physicality or tackling skill which is different from Gundogan's. Neither does Busi. In fact, Gundo is physically better equipped than Busi. The point is intelligence. Else, Pep would hv used Mascherano at DM and not Busi as u say. Cristiano, Bale hardly attack thru the center, though they love to cut inside. And CR is more or less a striker now, with very little dribbling ability. And oh, what makes u think I am suggesting playing Gundogan in central midfield every game. Pep does tinker based on opposition too. And my remarks are not pertaining to the derby but a more general idea of how Pep will think through the season. Forget these titles like DM, AM, RB, etc. I am saying Pep would love to use Gundo deeper if it means playing KdB as well becoz he can. Gundo is in fact, more box-to-box than Alonso or Busi, closer to Vidal if u like. Of course no one knows how he will be physically after his latest injury. But assuming he is back to his best, I hv no doubts he can be the playmaker in Pep's team. And that means he starts from deep, not from where KdB starts. Call him DM, CM, whatever. But with him as playmaker, the team automatically pins the opposition deeper into their half. So what does DM even mean when opponent try to transition? Pep has never used physicality to defend. He likes to defend space first. So the positioning and out-numbering of the opponent matters more. And Pep is clearly going more vertical in England making us dangerous every time we attack. And Fernandinho can play multiple roles depending on which phase we are in - recall the 3-1 tactical humbling Pep gave Mourinho at Bernabeu when Busi played 2 roles in the same game allowing us to use Cesc as well. Pep is here to show this country intelligence trumps physicality. And I agree with him.
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 3,802
It's undeniable!
Thanks for your point. Well, I start to think it's better for me to stop arguing in this thread for a while. We'll see in a month and continue) Anyway, I like this additional 'tactical intrigue'. It's the reason why I love 'total football' coaches so much) Shame that they are so rare.
Cool. Agree on the total football coaches. We may disagree on other points but I enjoy your posts nevertheless!
Just caught up with this thread - so I was wondering if Hungarian Blue (first post on this thread) could shed any light on my musings posted on the False 9 thread. Thanks if you are still there
Hungarian Blue - after 30 pages of this thread,/
"""For any of you old enough - I think the term false 9 - came about in 1953 - when Hideguthi played for Hungary (and Honved) against England(defeated 6-3 at Wembley
and 7-1 in Budapest.
Johnny Williamson played deep for City reserves at the beginning of 1954 season and later it became the Revie plan.
The meejah think they have found a new term - in false 9 - but it has been around well before most of them were born - lol......"""
Hungarian Blue - after 30 pages of this thread,/
"""For any of you old enough - I think the term false 9 - came about in 1953 - when Hideguthi played for Hungary (and Honved) against England(defeated 6-3 at Wembley
and 7-1 in Budapest.
Johnny Williamson played deep for City reserves at the beginning of 1954 season and later it became the Revie plan.
The meejah think they have found a new term - in false 9 - but it has been around well before most of them were born - lol......"""
jay_mcfc
Well-Known Member
The fundamental difference between those that think Gundogan can play the pivot and those that don't depends totally on whether you think it's a defensive position or attacking. With Pep it's all about starting the attacks but having the intelligence to be in the right place at the right time. Gundogan ticks those boxes.
Hungarian blue
Well-Known Member
Hey :)
I will find the time to look at that thread too in the near future, just not exactly now.
But basically yeas, Hidegkuti was probably the first 'major' player who played in this role (of course hardly the first one who ever existed, but maybe you can get more info from Jonathan Wilson's Inverting the Pyramide book, or if not, then I'll paste you the referring part). And then it became a popular thing, sort of. Most of the opponents couldn't really decide whether to track the '9' back into the middle area or just defend their own area, so it caused havoc, especially as other attackers were exploiting that space - and Kocsis or Puskas weren't too bad either. :)
Our (City's) current system when attacking (2-3-5) is actually something similar, too. :)
I would not bet on that - Ancelotti is different from Pep but not worse. He will not make a revolution.
The Supercup - you mean that match in which Dortmund started with a team with 11 players who have been in preparation since starting July including a thousand test matches against a team in which most of the starters have been in training since a week without test match? At the end of that match the players with the week training looked a lot fresher than their counterparts. This Supercup match looked exactly like the one a year ago - with Pep (Tuchel had more ball possession than, too, and it was even less shots of Bayern to even more shots of Dortmund - with the only difference that Bayern won now.
There is not much differences to see right now at Bayern - maybe that because of the injuries we play a 4-3-3 and the fullbacks push high as both Ribery and Müller move inside. But we have played in so many different variations with Pep - not always did the fullbacks move into midfield. In my eyes it was balanced so much because in every triangle Alaba-Vidal-Ribery and Lahm-Thiago-Müller there was a "playmaker" in Thiago and Ribery. It might get different again when Robben, Coman and Costa are available - Ancelotti already told that he for sure does not see Müller as a right winger even if he can play his version of it with his intelligence. There often will be Vidal-Thiago-Müller behind Lewy with two wingers, too.
The main difference right now is that Ancelotti let's the players some more freedom - that is actually fine as they are anyways very disciplined and there is "some little coaches" in the team. Pep is great - but he probably was right when he told that three years are enough and the players need a new input. 3 years with him cannot just drain him out but the players, too.
What made me looking for the passes - and then I thought it gets really interesting and I tried to find an explanation for it - was that I was comparing which team parts of both teams (yours and ours) had the majority of passes and I knew that Thiago had about 120.
I have seen parts of your matches now - there is still a lot to improve when it means positioning etc. - and then the passing will be faster, more one touch, less running. You cannot see that so much in detail - but I guess you will see that in the rising numbers of passes that your team will play.
Cheers for that HungBlue..............and Kocsis or Puskas weren't too bad either. :) (brilliant understatament !!.)
Andrew___K
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 20 Aug 2016
- Messages
- 3,802
For all interested - the analysis of Pep-Mou clash from Pep's last season with Barcelona. IMO, those 'clasicos' from 2011, 2012 are unrivaled in terms of quality&intensity since then.
Guardiola’s men wrestle control with structural shift
Jose Mourinho’s Real Madrid met Guardiola’s Barcelona at the Bernabeu on the evening of the 10th of December 2011. Mourinho’s men went into the game with a 3 point advantage and were desperate to add to their solitary victory over their arch-rivals in Mourinho’s tenure.
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/09/04/guardiolas-men-wrestle-control-with-structural-shift/
The game can be re-watched here: http://footballia.net/matches/real-madrid-fc-barcelona-liga-1-division-2011-2012
Guardiola’s men wrestle control with structural shift
Jose Mourinho’s Real Madrid met Guardiola’s Barcelona at the Bernabeu on the evening of the 10th of December 2011. Mourinho’s men went into the game with a 3 point advantage and were desperate to add to their solitary victory over their arch-rivals in Mourinho’s tenure.
http://spielverlagerung.com/2016/09/04/guardiolas-men-wrestle-control-with-structural-shift/
The game can be re-watched here: http://footballia.net/matches/real-madrid-fc-barcelona-liga-1-division-2011-2012
colombia-mcfc
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 25 Jul 2014
- Messages
- 655
Interesting post. The one difference between pep's bayern and pep's city is that Bayern had just won the treble so their players probably didn't want to buy into his philospohy fully because they were already at the top, which explains why players like ribery and muller didn't like his tactics. The difference at city is that the players aren't in their primes yet and are wanting to learn to improve their games, see sterling as an example
- Status