PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Three things

1) I have no doubt that City will try and restrict the years to which charges can be applied but the PL will no doubt counter argue that all the information sent in by City was accepted in good faith it was the disclosure of the emails that was the time they became aware.
2) The reference I make to Swiss law is that CAS conduct their Arbitration using the relevant prices and procedures contained therein and of course UEFA is under Swiss jurisdiction. But the PL panel, the Inevitable appeal and arbitration won’t be conducted in the same manner as a civil court case
3) Under the UEFA appeal and the CAS hearing City were able to introduce matters that werent first admitted into evidence at the origin hearing. There are severe restrictions around that in the way in which PL appeals are conducted.

Point 1 basically repeats what I said, which was: "City will therefore argue that everything outside a six-year period is time-barred. The PL must be relying on concealment here and will no doubt maintain that the period should run from the time of the Der Spiegel leaks, when it first became aware of the matters at hand."

Point 2 in my opinion doesn't really have much relevance. However the proceedings are conducted, both sides will have the opportunity to present their evidence and the decisive factor will be how convincing the evidence is.

As for point 3, City have said in the club's statement that they expect to be able to put a "comprehensive body of ... evidence" to the independent Commission. They'll have made that statement based on professional advice and knowing how the PL conducts such proceedings. I'm inclined to take them at their word rather than speculate given that I don't have at my disposal the facts that would enable me to make an informed assessment as to whether they're right.
 
Isnt that the whole basis of the PL case ?

Their contention is that all contracts re players, re managers all financial information is submitted in good faith and save certain issues the football authorities in England don’t have a process, resources or requirement to conduct a deep dive into the numbers.

This has been done to death earlier in the thread. Maybe we need a FAQ thread on this. This would qualify for a VFAQ. (A sort of Europa league for FAQs. You'll know all about the Europa league, being a Chelsea fan and all.)

Their case is that we have knowingly failed to provide accounts that give a true and fair view of the financial circumstances of the club. So, taking the Etihad sponsorship as an example, their case is (a) HHSM/ADUG provided MCFC with funding that was in reality owner investment, but (b) this was dishonestly presented in the accounts as sponsorship from Etihad in order to circumvent FFP rules. The problem with the FA's case is that not only do our audited accounts show that this was actually genuine sponsorship income paid for services rendered, but so do Etihad's audited accounts. So they need to prove that this is not just a case of City getting one past our own auditors, this was basically a conspiracy at a very high level in Abu Dhabi that involved two major international companies presenting accounts that were known to be false. As has been made clear ad nauseam, this is an extremely serious allegation, that is tantamount to an actual allegation of fraud.

The consequence in limitation terms is this. I will break it down into paragraphs, that might help.

1. The arrangements between MCFC and the PL are essentially contractual, and subject to English law.

2. Unlike the UEFA rules, the PL rules do not include any limitation period. However, because the arrangements are subject to English law, the general limitation period of 6 years applies. See point 1.

3. The limitation period is however suspended in a case (I paraphrase in the interests of brevity) where fraud is alleged until the fraud comes to light. It is at that point that the 6 year period begins to run.

4. What this means is that if the PL can establish fraud, the 6 year period will not apply until the fraud came to light, which was the publication of the Der Spiegel articles in 2018.

5. To get over that hurdle, however, the PL needs to adduce very cogent evidence. And if they cannot, the ordinary 6 year rule will apply. See point 2.

6. For that reason, the charge of fraud is central to the case for two reasons: (a) because that is precisely what the PL is alleging, and (2) because if they cannot establish fraud, the complaints that pre-date 2017 (ie six years before the complaint was made) are time-barred.
 
Then you'll understand why the PL will need to adduce particularly cogent evidence to clear the threshold imposed by the Act, and why, in the event of a failure to establish fraud etc the ordinary 6 year rule will apply.
If PL have the same evidance as UEFA they will not be abel to establish fraud , so thats 2/3 of the alleged breaches out of the window.
 
This has been done to death earlier in the thread. Maybe we need a FAQ thread on this. This would qualify for a VFAQ. (A sort of Europa league for FAQs. You'll know all about the Europa league, being a Chelsea fan and all.)

Their case is that we have knowingly failed to provide accounts that give a true and fair view of the financial circumstances of the club. So, taking the Etihad sponsorship as an example, their case is (a) HHSM/ADUG provided MCFC with funding that was in reality owner investment, but (b) this was dishonestly presented in the accounts as sponsorship from Etihad in order to circumvent FFP rules. The problem with the FA's case is that not only do our audited accounts show that this was actually genuine sponsorship income paid for services rendered, but so do Etihad's audited accounts. So they need to prove that this is not just a case of City getting one past our own auditors, this was basically a conspiracy at a very high level in Abu Dhabi that involved two major international companies presenting accounts that were known to be false. As has been made clear ad nauseam, this is an extremely serious allegation, that is tantamount to an actual allegation of fraud.

The consequence in limitation terms is this. I will break it down into paragraphs, that might help.

1. The arrangements between MCFC and the PL are essentially contractual, and subject to English law.

2. Unlike the UEFA rules, the PL rules do not include any limitation period. However, because the arrangements are subject to English law, the general limitation period of 6 years applies. See point 1.

3. The limitation period is however suspended in a case (I paraphrase in the interests of brevity) where fraud is alleged until the fraud comes to light. It is at that point that the 6 year period begins to run.

4. What this means is that if the PL can establish fraud, the 6 year period will not apply until the fraud came to light, which was the publication of the Der Spiegel articles in 2018.

5. To get over that hurdle, however, the PL needs to adduce very cogent evidence. And if they cannot, the ordinary 6 year rule will apply. See point 2.

6. For that reason, the charge of fraud is central to the case for two reasons: (a) because that is precisely what the PL is alleging, and (2) because if they cannot establish fraud, the complaints that pre-date 2017 (ie six years before the complaint was made) are time-barred.
100% right re the EL

I have made very little comment about the sponsorship because quite simply I am far from convinced either one way or another. I suspect that the PL will have pursued matters and documents that UEFA gave up on
Its why my focus has tended to be on the charges relating to the managers alleged dual contracts and the issues around image rights.
In another post I talked about Chicken and Egg situation. I see these areas as being hitherto untested and If the PL is right then that then causes them to revisit information under UEFA form (37? ) and of course of course under the PLs own version
 
Say the 5% is not non cooperation & the Premier league make it stick, can they throw the book at us (pardon the pun) for what would be minor breaches. If I remember rightly CAS decided that the £10m fine for non cooperation was as high as possible due to our standing.
 
100% right re the EL

I have made very little comment about the sponsorship because quite simply I am far from convinced either one way or another. I suspect that the PL will have pursued matters and documents that UEFA gave up on
Its why my focus has tended to be on the charges relating to the managers alleged dual contracts and the issues around image rights.
In another post I talked about Chicken and Egg situation. I see these areas as being hitherto untested and If the PL is right then that then causes them to revisit information under UEFA form (37? ) and of course of course under the PLs own version
No matter how many times this fúckwit is answered he comes back with Mancini contract & image rights.

He is expressing his own hopes & wishes and the issues he has raised have been explained, and clarified over and over and over and over again.

This fucking idiot is nothing more than a troll with a basic grasp of the charges trolling, it is up to whoever wants to respond to this fucking idiot (including me), but they will come back with the same fucking nonsense no matter how many times anyone replies to them.

This person is imposing their own view as they want to see it play out, no matter what reply they receive, it’s fucking boring and brings nothing to this discussion as their constant repeated posts have proven.
 
100% right re the EL

I have made very little comment about the sponsorship because quite simply I am far from convinced either one way or another. I suspect that the PL will have pursued matters and documents that UEFA gave up on
Its why my focus has tended to be on the charges relating to the managers alleged dual contracts and the issues around image rights.
In another post I talked about Chicken and Egg situation. I see these areas as being hitherto untested and If the PL is right then that then causes them to revisit information under UEFA form (37? ) and of course of course under the PLs own version

In relation to the Al Jazira contract, the exact same problem arises. There is a contact between Mancini (or his company, I forget which) and Al Jazira (the UAE club owned by HHSM) undwer which Mancini was required to provide certain services in exchange for which he would receive a certain amount of money. If that is a genuine contract, that is the end of that particular issue. So the PL would need to show it was not a genuine contract.

But to show it is not a genuine contract the PL will need to show that the contract was, according to English law, a sham. That is a very tall order in itself, because there is a very strong presumption that the agreements entered into by parties are intended to be lawful and binding. To allege that a document purporting to be a contract between A and B is in fact a sham entered into to disguise the true arrangements between them is tantamount to an allegation of fraud in itself. Especially when you bear in mind that the fundamental charge is that we knowingly presented misleading accounts to the PL and passed them off as being a true and fair presentation of our financial circumstances.

So the same point about limitation applies. As with the sponsorship claims, either the PL demonstrate we are guilty of fraud or, bearing in mind the age of the matters complained about, they pack up and go home.

They have made some incredibly serious allegations against the highest officers of MCFC. The only possible logical explanations are that they have the evidence that they think will persuade an independent panel that we are guilty of the very serious accusations made against us - and that evidence would have to be very considerably stronger than anything that has been put in the public domain thus far - or they brought the charges under pressure from MCFC's competitors on and off the pitch.
 
Say the 5% is not non cooperation & the Premier league make it stick, can they throw the book at us (pardon the pun) for what would be minor breaches. If I remember rightly CAS decided that the £10m fine for non cooperation was as high as possible due to our standing.
Yes they can. What they can't do, however, which I think is what you are worried about, is say "having found you not guilty of all the other charges, we're going to fine you as much as we can because we think you're probably guilty of them, too."
 
Is it true to say that if the PL make any charges stick, charges that indirectly accuse us of fraud (ie that City didn't declare all earnings), would City be able to take the PL to court for such an accusation?

And would the PL have to take those things into account when they make any ruling?
 
This has been done to death earlier in the thread. Maybe we need a FAQ thread on this. This would qualify for a VFAQ. (A sort of Europa league for FAQs. You'll know all about the Europa league, being a Chelsea fan and all.)

Their case is that we have knowingly failed to provide accounts that give a true and fair view of the financial circumstances of the club. So, taking the Etihad sponsorship as an example, their case is (a) HHSM/ADUG provided MCFC with funding that was in reality owner investment, but (b) this was dishonestly presented in the accounts as sponsorship from Etihad in order to circumvent FFP rules. The problem with the FA's case is that not only do our audited accounts show that this was actually genuine sponsorship income paid for services rendered, but so do Etihad's audited accounts. So they need to prove that this is not just a case of City getting one past our own auditors, this was basically a conspiracy at a very high level in Abu Dhabi that involved two major international companies presenting accounts that were known to be false. As has been made clear ad nauseam, this is an extremely serious allegation, that is tantamount to an actual allegation of fraud.

The consequence in limitation terms is this. I will break it down into paragraphs, that might help.

1. The arrangements between MCFC and the PL are essentially contractual, and subject to English law.

2. Unlike the UEFA rules, the PL rules do not include any limitation period. However, because the arrangements are subject to English law, the general limitation period of 6 years applies. See point 1.

3. The limitation period is however suspended in a case (I paraphrase in the interests of brevity) where fraud is alleged until the fraud comes to light. It is at that point that the 6 year period begins to run.

4. What this means is that if the PL can establish fraud, the 6 year period will not apply until the fraud came to light, which was the publication of the Der Spiegel articles in 2018.

5. To get over that hurdle, however, the PL needs to adduce very cogent evidence. And if they cannot, the ordinary 6 year rule will apply. See point 2.

6. For that reason, the charge of fraud is central to the case for two reasons: (a) because that is precisely what the PL is alleging, and (2) because if they cannot establish fraud, the complaints that pre-date 2017 (ie six years before the complaint was made) are time-barred.
Just the one question from me Chris you'll be happy to hear :)

What is the Europa League?
 
In relation to the Al Jazira contract, the exact same problem arises. There is a contact between Mancini (or his company, I forget which) and Al Jazira (the UAE club owned by HHSM) undwer which Mancini was required to provide certain services in exchange for which he would receive a certain amount of money. If that is a genuine contract, that is the end of that particular issue. So the PL would need to show it was not a genuine contract.

But to show it is not a genuine contract the PL will need to show that the contract was, according to English law, a sham. That is a very tall order in itself, because there is a very strong presumption that the agreements entered into by parties are intended to be lawful and binding. To allege that a document purporting to be a contract between A and B is in fact a sham entered into to disguise the true arrangements between them is tantamount to an allegation of fraud in itself. Especially when you bear in mind that the fundamental charge is that we knowingly presented misleading accounts to the PL and passed them off as being a true and fair presentation of our financial circumstances.

So the same point about limitation applies. As with the sponsorship claims, either the PL demonstrate we are guilty of fraud or, bearing in mind the age of the matters complained about, they pack up and go home.

They have made some incredibly serious allegations against the highest officers of MCFC. The only possible logical explanations are that they have the evidence that they think will persuade an independent panel that we are guilty of the very serious accusations made against us - and that evidence would have to be very considerably stronger than anything that has been put in the public domain thus far - or they brought the charges under pressure from MCFC's competitors on and off the pitch.

... Or that they haven't been provided with evidence that clearly shows an absence of wrong-doing, so they had to include the issues as breaches to move the whole process along?
 
In relation to the Al Jazira contract, the exact same problem arises. There is a contact between Mancini (or his company, I forget which) and Al Jazira (the UAE club owned by HHSM) undwer which Mancini was required to provide certain services in exchange for which he would receive a certain amount of money. If that is a genuine contract, that is the end of that particular issue. So the PL would need to show it was not a genuine contract.

But to show it is not a genuine contract the PL will need to show that the contract was, according to English law, a sham. That is a very tall order in itself, because there is a very strong presumption that the agreements entered into by parties are intended to be lawful and binding. To allege that a document purporting to be a contract between A and B is in fact a sham entered into to disguise the true arrangements between them is tantamount to an allegation of fraud in itself. Especially when you bear in mind that the fundamental charge is that we knowingly presented misleading accounts to the PL and passed them off as being a true and fair presentation of our financial circumstances.

So the same point about limitation applies. As with the sponsorship claims, either the PL demonstrate we are guilty of fraud or, bearing in mind the age of the matters complained about, they pack up and go home.

They have made some incredibly serious allegations against the highest officers of MCFC. The only possible logical explanations are that they have the evidence that they think will persuade an independent panel that we are guilty of the very serious accusations made against us - and that evidence would have to be very considerably stronger than anything that has been put in the public domain thus far - or they brought the charges under pressure from MCFC's competitors on and off the pitch.
I believe that the contract was with Mancini’s company Italy International Sr
Services Ltd. It is claimed that it was signed on the same day as he signed his City Contract.
The last part of the claim is that Italy International Services issued invoices quarterly to Man City itself and not Al Jaziera
 
This has been done to death earlier in the thread. Maybe we need a FAQ thread on this. This would qualify for a VFAQ. (A sort of Europa league for FAQs. You'll know all about the Europa league, being a Chelsea fan and all.)

Their case is that we have knowingly failed to provide accounts that give a true and fair view of the financial circumstances of the club. So, taking the Etihad sponsorship as an example, their case is (a) HHSM/ADUG provided MCFC with funding that was in reality owner investment, but (b) this was dishonestly presented in the accounts as sponsorship from Etihad in order to circumvent FFP rules.
As a former auditor, albeit many years ago and probably out of touch with modern practice, I'd like to clarify something. Our accounts do have to give a 'true and fair view' of our financial transactions and situation. But there's no definitive answer to, or statutory definition of, what 'true and fair' is.

But generally, for an auditor not to confirm that accounts were true and fair, there would have to be a material issue, not a few quid here or there. So even if the auditors knew about the alternative Mancini contract and felt that it should have been reported by City, in their accounts, I very much doubt they would qualify the accounts. I doubt they'd even know about it though, because it was a personal contract between Mancini and an unconnected third-party.

For a company like City, or an even bigger one, the auditors won't check every single transaction. They might satisfy themselves as to the adequacy of the financial systems for accurately recording income and expenditure and would examine relevant financial controls. A key one is whether an individual could both initiate, authorise and receive a large payment, without a second or multiple persons checking.

They most likely would (certainly in my day) have checked the larger items and that would include Etihad's sponsorship. So if our accounts showed £50m revenue from Etihad, they'd probably check that £50m was actually received. That might a single payment, or multiple payments. As long as they could track that £50m from the bank statements to the P&L account, I doubt they'd enquire much further.

But if they could only see £10m of that claimed £50m, they'd ask questions. The answer from the CFO might be that we're waiting for the other £40m,which was due shortly. I suspect they'd want to see that £40m come in before they expressed an opinion, or at the very least, have assurances from Etihad that this payment was due, relates to the period under review and a good idea of when it was due to be paid. They'd then have to make a decision as to whether the accounts were 'true and fair' (because £40m would be material) and even if they did sign the accounts off, they'd probably demand evidence of it arriving and maybe make some comment, or insist City made a relevant comment in those accounts.

Another scenario might be Etihad paying us £10m and the other £40m being from ADUG. They would presumably then question whether that was equity funding, and should therefore go into the balance sheet, rather than the P&L account. That would be subject to discussions with City senior management but I'd say the likelihood is that they would insist on it being reclassified, as it's material.

I think someone said earlier in this thread that it wasn't necessarily what was done, but what the intent was that would determine fraud. The valuation of stock affects profit. This has to be valued at the lower of cost or net realisable value, but cost may have a number of different components. It may be a very subjective judgement on what NRV is but it could be that a company is valuing stock, which it knows is completely worthless, at cost. That's likely to be fraudulent. There have been many cases where revenue from contracts signed or meant to be signed with customers has been knowingly overstated.

A high-profile case involves the software company Autonomy, who used to sponsor Spurs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47691083. I think Mike Lynch is still fighting extradition but the UK courts have broadly supported HP's view that he and his CFO were guilty of fraud.

So just because a set of accounts aren't correct to the nearest pound, doesn't mean they aren't showing a true and fair view. And even if they're held not to be a true and fair view, there could be other reasons beyond a deliberate fraud why they might not be.
 
No matter how many times this fúckwit is answered he comes back with Mancini contract & image rights.

He is expressing his own hopes & wishes and the issues he has raised have been explained, and clarified over and over and over and over again.

This fucking idiot is nothing more than a troll with a basic grasp of the charges trolling, it is up to whoever wants to respond to this fucking idiot (including me), but they will come back with the same fucking nonsense no matter how many times anyone replies to them.

This person is imposing their own view as they want to see it play out, no matter what reply they receive, it’s fucking boring and brings nothing to this discussion as their constant repeated posts have proven.
Ta ra Loon is probably a more apt username for him.
 
I believe that the contract was with Mancini’s company Italy International Sr
Services Ltd. It is claimed that it was signed on the same day as he signed his City Contract.
The last part of the claim is that Italy International Services issued invoices quarterly to Man City itself and not Al Jaziera
Source? Claimed by whom - you?
 
Tolm
You were bullish a while back with your insight that the club is insistent that 95 per cent of the shit thrown at the wall is in triplicate and the majority of it will be dismissed on the first day. Given your comment above regarding the constitution of the panel do you know if the club remains as positive.

They remain supremely confident.

Certainly more so than I remember prior to CAS.

And prior to that, Khaldoon had told people directly to their faces we would not lose.
 
As a former auditor, albeit many years ago and probably out of touch with modern practice, I'd like to clarify something. Our accounts do have to give a 'true and fair view' of our financial transactions and situation. But there's no definitive answer to, or statutory definition of, what 'true and fair' is.

But generally, for an auditor not to confirm that accounts were true and fair, there would have to be a material issue, not a few quid here or there. So even if the auditors knew about the alternative Mancini contract and felt that it should have been reported by City, in their accounts, I very much doubt they would qualify the accounts. I doubt they'd even know about it though, because it was a personal contract between Mancini and an unconnected third-party.

For a company like City, or an even bigger one, the auditors won't check every single transaction. They might satisfy themselves as to the adequacy of the financial systems for accurately recording income and expenditure and would examine relevant financial controls. A key one is whether an individual could both initiate, authorise and receive a large payment, without a second or multiple persons checking.

They most likely would (certainly in my day) have checked the larger items and that would include Etihad's sponsorship. So if our accounts showed £50m revenue from Etihad, they'd probably check that £50m was actually received. That might a single payment, or multiple payments. As long as they could track that £50m from the bank statements to the P&L account, I doubt they'd enquire much further.

But if they could only see £10m of that claimed £50m, they'd ask questions. The answer from the CFO might be that we're waiting for the other £40m,which was due shortly. I suspect they'd want to see that £40m come in before they expressed an opinion, or at the very least, have assurances from Etihad that this payment was due, relates to the period under review and a good idea of when it was due to be paid. They'd then have to make a decision as to whether the accounts were 'true and fair' (because £40m would be material) and even if they did sign the accounts off, they'd probably demand evidence of it arriving and maybe make some comment, or insist City made a relevant comment in those accounts.

Another scenario might be Etihad paying us £10m and the other £40m being from ADUG. They would presumably then question whether that was equity funding, and should therefore go into the balance sheet, rather than the P&L account. That would be subject to discussions with City senior management but I'd say the likelihood is that they would insist on it being reclassified, as it's material.

I think someone said earlier in this thread that it wasn't necessarily what was done, but what the intent was that would determine fraud. The valuation of stock affects profit. This has to be valued at the lower of cost or net realisable value, but cost may have a number of different components. It may be a very subjective judgement on what NRV is but it could be that a company is valuing stock, which it knows is completely worthless, at cost. That's likely to be fraudulent. There have been many cases where revenue from contracts signed or meant to be signed with customers has been knowingly overstated.

A high-profile case involves the software company Autonomy, who used to sponsor Spurs. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47691083. I think Mike Lynch is still fighting extradition but the UK courts have broadly supported HP's view that he and his CFO were guilty of fraud.

So just because a set of accounts aren't correct to the nearest pound, doesn't mean they aren't showing a true and fair view. And even if they're held not to be a true and fair view, there could be other reasons beyond a deliberate fraud why they might not be.

I have commented on true, fair and accurate before on this thread but I will repeat some of that in a moment.

For context, I started out in audit in what is now part of one of the big four accounting firms but swiftly moved out of practice after qualifying; albeit initially into internal audit. Since then I have worked in senior finance roles for many years in businesses of varying size and been to subjected to many audits.

I have little doubt that you are correct about how city's auditors would have dealt with sponsorship income, they would have been all over anything that material.

My previous comments:
The distinction between fair and accurate is very important and I am not going to get into a long discussion of that as it will bore but - odd as it may seem to laymen - there is no requirement under law to file totally accurate accounts. In fact, it's almost fucking impossible with any sizeable business.

Fair does though mean that accounts should be materially correct - and materiality varies depending on circumstances.

Fair also means that transactions have been reported appropriately and that is where trouble might arise for City, as I guess the EPL are going to try and argue that transactions not in City's books, and which legally were not required to be, should have been reported - at least in some way - to the EPL.

Good luck with proving such a thing (obviously I don't actually wish the EPL anything but the worst of fortune). I very much doubt that all the various auditors involved have not done sufficient work to ensure that their clients' account were not true and fair under the relevant laws of the land.

The EPL look like they may be wishing to redefine the meaning of true and fair and other accepted accounting terms such as related party.
 

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