Political relations between UK-EU

[Vic]

It's only what the SNP voters have been asking for with independence. Should be happy for them.

All part of a Tory plot to impoverish Scotland and deter independence?

 

[Rascal]

It's a bootleg snuff film masquerading as an independent arthouse project.

It got got minimal coverage because it had no support of those in positions of power or any popular support.

Without support of those in positions of power not just politicians, but those who wield power in the media, it was always an uphill struggle to gain any support despite there being a long tradition of Euroscepticism on the Labour left going back to the days of Benn and Foot. Corbyn is a long time sceptic but was hamstrung by a CLP more intent in removing him than supporting him, so LEXIT was denied a face on the left.

You can't make the case to leave the EU on the basis of communist revolutionary theory or Gramscian ideas of class. Values and identity is much more powerful than economic arguments of redistribution and the like.

Nobody was arguing on the basis of Revolutionary Communist theory, Marxism, Gramsci, Luxembourg or any other leftist philosophical figure. It recognised the importance of of values and identity. Small C conservative values are inherent to Democratic Socialism.

The Brexiteers vision was inherently rooted in the past and that is a big part why it won, many people looking back with rose tinted specs to a time and place that they didn't live in or even learn much about. As I have said before , my experience is most people look backwards not forwards in how they view their politics. British Rail was raised whenever people spoke about nationalisation or public ownership (despite the fact that BR was for a significant part of its history increasingly privatised), they don't look to examples in other countries in the present day. The narrative about BR is more important than the facts and truth, you could quote articles and studies and all manner of evidence and somebody who raised BR would probably turn around and say I was there and know how it was.

The Brexiteers of the right used this very effectively, Remain has no counter narrative. As Lexit was pushed out of the picture due to lack of figurehead the case for renationalisation was left as Labour party policy rather than a benefit of leaving.

Both Owen Jones and Paul Mason have come to realisation that Brexit was always intrinsically and inevitably a racist xenophobic project despite having different viewpoints and leanings.

I take neither of them seriously, they have both become parodies of themselves. Jones the self proclaimed Socialist is a liberal, pure and simple. Mason the Music graduate has his good points, he is pointedly anti fascist, but has become a figure of fun on the left, many think his bats have left his belfry.

Brexit i am certain has its racist and xenophobic element, James O'Brien is fond of saying "Not everyone who voted leave is a racist, but every racist voted leave"

As Owen Jones raises the point, most people don't want to leave the EU because of neo-liberalism. Most people wouldn't even know what neoliberal economics is, there are still prominent posters on this sub forum who refer to it frequently without actually knowing what it really means. Most people don't have the idea (certainly not fully articulated) that you can have different kinds of capitalism, or the grasp that the capitalism in the UK in this moment is different from how it is expressed in a different country or in a different decade. Why else would austerity have been so successful in enchanting the three major parties for two straight elections in 2010 and 2015? You can't fight the kind of political and economical battles that you want to fight Rascal in a world where you don't have popular appeal and popular support but childish analogies like household budgets take root.

The UK must embrace a European future or accept isolation and decline

As the world divides into regional superpowers – the US, China and the EU – Britain cannot stand alone.

www.newstatesman.com

There may be an element of truth to that. 40 years of propaganda is never going to be changed overnight, thankfully this government is doing its level best to eradicate those 40 years of propaganda and this pandemic has highlighted the flaws in neo-liberalism just as it has also highlighted the flaws in democracy.

I was arguing against austerity on here 10 years ago, I warned of the consequences, I highlighted the idiotic analogies, but propaganda is strong and the Tories to be fair were excellent at propagandising the message to full effect.

From my perspective, there is now hope where there was no hope that a Socialist country can be realised. I would have i have stated previously been quite happy to vote remain of there was a vision for the future. Remain failed through a mixture of arrogance and complacency and they lacked a vision.

 

[Hart of the Matter]

My favourite vinyl dealers from Europe no longer delivering to UK. Delays and costs being cited. My Italian based blues vinyl monthly box has been put on hold for same reason. Not wishing to warp the conversation but this is the final cut for me.

 

[hampshireblue]

My favourite vinyl dealers from Europe no longer delivering to UK. Delays and costs being cited. My Italian based blues vinyl monthly box has been put on hold for same reason. Not wishing to warp the conversation but this is the final cut for me.

That's a circular argument!!

 

[Hart of the Matter]

That's a circular argument!!

It's needling me though...

 

[journolud]

My favourite vinyl dealers from Europe no longer delivering to UK. Delays and costs being cited. My Italian based blues vinyl monthly box has been put on hold for same reason. Not wishing to warp the conversation but this is the final cut for me.

Is that on the record?

 

[hampshireblue]

These are all the EU laws that have been forced on us 'against our will'

Rationalist vs Leave theory that exiting the EU means "taking back control".

www.thelondoneconomic.com

The above link is an interesting read. It lists all 72, yes 72 laws out of over 4500 that were passed against our will whilst we were members. Examples are making sure carciogenic ingredients are highlighted on food packaging and protection for passengers when a flight is delayed/cancelled-both of which the UK didn't want. Oh I think tobacco advertising is in there as well.

 

[BobKowalski]

One way of moving the debate on is to recognise the problems in detail. Then a proper discussion on how they could be resolved. That is more useful than a dry hypothetical discussion about what should have been done. Good programme management is fixing forward not looking back. Until you and others admit and recognise that there are issues this thread will remain in its present intellectual limbo.

Agreed. Recognising where we are, and what the deal entails for businesses is the first step in mitigating what issues can be mitigated or at least putting systems in place that assist businesses that are handicapped by the lack of seamless access.

The first and most sensible step would have been agreeing this deal in year one and having a transition deal in place for year two while we tried to work out what barriers were now in place and how much resource was needed to navigate these barriers.

We gave it six days during a pandemic. A decision I note that the ‘systems guru‘ fully supported.

We should have also identified which issues are a feature of Brexit and those that are a result of mismanagement and lack of time as the latter is exacerbating the former.

 

[BobKowalski]

This is a case in point re this story about meat exports ‘rotting’ away.

‘Pigs heads and other meat exports are rotting in Rotterdam as “eye-watering” post-Brexit paperwork stifles the UK meat industry. 120+ lorries are currently believed to be stuck at the Dutch port. One lorry carrying pork has been there for nearly 3 weeks.’ @politicshome

Yet as per Sam Lowe ‘For some reason the UK made no effort to negotiate a veterinary agreement similar to the Swiss that would have removed the need for declarations and checks on products of animal origin both at the EU border, and on trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland.‘

So you have two issues. The standard EU rules on meat produce (a problem) with no attempt to mitigate that problem, thereby making it worse.

But the reason we didn’t ask is because it would require something in return and that might ‘dilute’ the purity of Brexit. I note that the ‘systems guru’ also put purity over pragmatism.

 

[BobKowalski]

Finally, the story from the Standard captures this naive belief that the deal meant we carried on as before...

‘He said: “A lot of companies thought that just because a deal was done everything would stay the same but what we are finding, whether they are SMEs, FTSE 100 or Fortune 500 companies, is that they are not prepared for all the forms and regulations they have to adhere to.’

Hair salons face Brexit chaos as beauty supplies tangled in red tape

Hair salons have become the latest businesses to be hit by the Brexit chaos since Britain’s split with the European Union was finalised at the end of the year.

www.standard.co.uk