Political relations between UK-EU

[Deleted member 77198]

And many voted remain so their kids and grandkids could still enjoy the benefits of the here and now

Yeah that was me

 

[west didsblue]

You are clearly unable to comment on this subject of planning and management - as that incoherent babbling demonstrates

I did expect more from @Saddleworth2 though

But - if this is all that Remainers can muster it just proves my thoughts in this area to be correct - no matter what denial you collectively try and hide behind.

Just in case there are still any Leave supporters bothering with the thread....

I can confirm that - with regards the issues that have manifested so far in the fishing industry - planning for their mitigation and achieving a smooth cutover would have indeed been very straightforward.

All it needed was for the decision to be made early enough - in 2016/2017 - and given the resources, commitment and authority - but that required a government to have been in place that was committed to Brexit - including coming out of the SM and CU

What we had was the hapless May/Hammond/Robbins combo of Remainers

So - it is indeed true that Leavers have a lot more reason to be fucked off with the UK government than Remainers

It is also true - as I have accurately pointed out for years - that the Remainers May/Hammond/Robbins - did so much damage to the UK

So - Leavers can afford to watch as Bob and his merry band seek to delight in issues that arise that negatively impact the UK - in the knowledge that the damage resulting is clearly the fault of the UK being led by Remainers during 2016-2019.

I am not surprised most of the Leavers choose to give the thread a swerve

I'm sure you're repeatedly posting this shit for a bet.

No one in their right mind can possibly believe it and keep repeating it ad nauseam unless they're trolling or for some other ulterior motive.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

A few usually means more than 2 so to be charitable lets say 3. My kids are in their 20s so they'll be in their 50s planning for retirement by then. I'm sure they'll be thrilled.

Yeah nowt wrong with that in my view. Like I said, I voted Remain for short term selfishness, but in the long term this country will be better off out of the EU so am happy to take the pinch in my life for a better life for future generations.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I’m not, don’t think there will be many benefits. Saying it will be decades before we see them and it was for the children which is more likely to be grandchildren is a weak argument though.
May as well tell me it will be fine after your dead and I’m only 57.

I was using record speeds to highlight the difference in opinion as to how long we may have to wait to see the benefits of Brexit.

 

[Rascal]

How would a lexit campaign ever have media support? There is no traditional media outlets that would be likely to take such a position and recommend it. But it got coverage by columnists taking devil's advocate positions. The reality is that you have to accept that hard left positions will never get wide coverage by established media outlets and you have to fight within the political arena that exists not one of your choosing.

You categorise it as a hard left position without describing why it is a hard left position. Unless you consider Democratic Socialists such as Benn as hard left.

It is no wonder the left get no hearing when even the middle of the road leftists are described as Hard Left. What you are doing is using the Daily Mail tactic of describing anything remotely left wing as Hard Left..

Mcdonnell and Abbott were of similar persuasions, and both heavily backed remain. When Corbyn first came to power, he used "we" rather than "I", he didn't mean it as a royal we. On that basis It would be out of place for him to turn around and dictate the party position based on historical views.

Corbyn could not dictate party policy, it is a Democratic party and policy is decided democratically at conference.

The trouble with not having your voice heard loudly and broadly is that it doesn't take on a distinctive and definitive character. Nobody can answer what Lexit claimed to be because there many versions. The are contemporaneous publications in sites like socialistworker prereferendum that advocated Lexit as an opportunity following the collapse of a chaos engulfed Tory party that evoked ideas that sound heavily wedded in socialist theory of 20th century figures.

Labour Leave

Like the right wing leave the left wing leave also had different ideas of how it should end. For instance The Morning Star supported Lexit as it is a Democratic Socialist stance not a Social Democratic stance. What i would consider the soft left or liberal left were Pro EU but they are comfortable with capitalist excess. Blair himself said that Labour should be comfortable for millionaires.

Unlike Lexit, Brexit had a distinct voice in the form of vote leave and leave.Eu. Although there were two camps, one was just a more cynical bare-faced version that did the heavy lifting of stoking naked xenophobia. Both Farage and Boris are proponents of neo-mercantilism and low tax regimes first and foremost.

Yes it did. Farage and Johnson may be proponents of what they like, but they have gambled as well, if brexit does go tits up as is proving the case at the moment due to the sheer incompetence of Johnson, then the door is open to take the country to the left. Shame we have Keith in charge

Remain and reform, although a fringe argument was still better articulated and had wider support than Lexit.

Not to my satisfaction and it got little traction as RW leave dominated the print media. Most remainer's here argue for the status quo, a position that in my mind was untenable.

This country is not the only one prone to simplistic propaganda tools, see Germany's Swabian housewife vs the Southern European grasshoppers evoked by Merkel against Greece. Human beings are prone to reductive storytelling at the expense of truth and reason, propaganda can always evolve and survive.

As we have seen

For example austerity could die but ideas of neo-liberal politics and economics could grow and renew- there are still chronically infected in reservoirs of nutjobberery ready to beat its drum.

The fight is against neo-liberalism, it is against the reservoir of nutjobbery that brought us the stupidity of those economic policies

Lexit never took hold because it was a shit idea not rooted in reality. There were ways to skirt around state aid laws to further public ownership and greater intervention in key industries without unleashing the destructive and corrosive forces of Brexit.

Lexit was a product of the referendum, Labour Euroscepticism had long lay dormant after the split that lead to the SDP, when in Foots manifesto Labour pledged to take us out of the EU

Osborne (because Cameron is too thick) knew that a referendum could solve Tory disharmony and sew seeds of disharmony in the left. Rather clever of him.

There was no way though a Tory government would skirt around those rules, the Steel industry being point. Only a Labour left led brexit would be enable it.

British governments had idealogical reasons for not intervening in circumstances where the French and Germans would have done, but evoked state aid rules to escape scrutiny.

Yes our governments attachment to neo-liberal economics and its inherent anti state/pro free market stance.

Is it Pethaps more likely that Corbyn took a position more in keeping with the reality of the country and his party than any act of politcal sabotage or cowardice?

I wish he had been true to his convictions and led the Labour leave campaign.

He was a man who never wanted to be a leader and showed it with his characteristically counterproductive stubbornness and indecision.

In your opinion.

The politics of false betrayal and grievance is a right wing trait that the hardline Lexiteers have adopted and will cling to throughout any future defeat such as regression in worker's rights or environmental protections.

The grievance is the Tories fucking up brexit to such an extent things may happen. Brexit itself is still an ideologically sound position, it is just been undertaken by the wrong sort of lunatics.

Clinging to the tree that will never bear fruit with all the stubborn determination of a Japanese holdout.

As is clinging to the EU with its sops to workers and kowtowing to finance.

The fact remains though, we are where we are. We have an extreme right wing brexit that will i fear lead us to a more libertarian, ultra neo-liberal, anti democratic country which i will despise.

It is not my fault though that silly cunts vote Tory.

 

[Postman Pep]

Yeah nowt wrong with that in my view. Like I said, I voted Remain for short term selfishness, but in the long term this country will be better off out of the EU so am happy to take the pinch in my life for a better life for future generations.

My lad is 22 (was 3 months shy of having a vote in 2016) and the pandemic is already taking a chunk out of his (carefree days of) life. Haven't the heart to suggest he'll have to wait till he's in his early forties till he sees the true fruits of this decision he had no say in. You're not really selling the positivity pal :)

 

[Vic]

These are all the EU laws that have been forced on us 'against our will'

Rationalist vs Leave theory that exiting the EU means "taking back control".

www.thelondoneconomic.com

The above link is an interesting read. It lists all 72, yes 72 laws out of over 4500 that were passed against our will whilst we were members. Examples are making sure carciogenic ingredients are highlighted on food packaging and protection for passengers when a flight is delayed/cancelled-both of which the UK didn't want. Oh I think tobacco advertising is in there as well.

Well worth a trawl!

 

[Vic]

So nothing then? And by the lack of replies from the other anti-Brexit spam posters on this thread, they did absolutely nothing neither.

So you’re coming in here moaning about how shit something is that you all did close to fuck all to try and stop happening?!

I would have thought the level of obsession you all have with the continual and repetitive posting tactics on this thread, that you’d have done everything you possibly could have to stop Brexit happening.

But all you all did was vote Remain and moan on Bluemoon for five years, and ongoing.

Hard for one person, even knocking on doors, to overcome loads of leaver lies going unchallenged on TV. And frankly, Leavers prided themselves in having made their mind up. I was asked to talk to a non-political group about Brexit before the referendum and was probably too neutral about what it would mean, except for saying it would be horribly complicated.

But I'm saying no more as it's just another deflection from how shit Brexit is.

 

[Vic]

Off the top of my head in the time frame of writing one post I came up with:
Demanding to speak to your local MP to question the inept or even complete lack of tactics used by the Remain campaign.
Create blogs/video channels/websites, organise meetings in your area, or even go door-to-door, to try and educate people further than what the Remain campaign were failing at doing.
Even getting involved in the Remain campaign.

If I was as passionate about Remain winning/Brexit not happening as some on this thread appear to be (look at the posting rates on this thread, it wasn’t even left alone on Christmas Day morning for fuck’s sake!) but I did close to nothing else but vote a few times, I wouldn’t be coming on Bluemoon to moan about it every day, I’d be looking back at what I did (fuck all) with my head in my hands thinking “why the fuck didn’t I do more?!” and then I’d be actioning something for the future to make things better, not making the same mistake of doing fuck all other than moaning on Bluemoon.

Why are you here now?

 

[west didsblue]

Yeah nowt wrong with that in my view. Like I said, I voted Remain for short term selfishness, but in the long term this country will be better off out of the EU so am happy to take the pinch in my life for a better life for future generations.

Well I won’t be taking a pinch. I’ll be retiring on a 2/3 final salary pension in a few years supplemented by income from various investments so it will be my Remain voting kids (apart from the youngest who didn’t have a say in 2016) who will take the pinch on the off chance their unborn kids will benefit. I’ll tell them not to be selfish.