Political relations between UK-EU

Rascal said:
Correct in trying to be all things to all men, it ended up being nothing to anyone.

And now Macarthyite Vic has cunningly outed me as a Communist insurgent, kind of like the forum red under the bed I expect he thinks i am an agent of Putin or some other wild eyed fanatic intent on destroying democracy.
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Afternoon Rasc' hope you're well?
I've reead your input on this and am a bit surprised at your take on the EU. i think i can understand the ''business' side of your stance (wealth creation, expansion, growth etc) but the 'people' or socialist aspect of your beef has me confused.
The way i see it regarding the union, and being in it, is much better for 'society' and us citizens. EU cash has been used to directly help me and others where i work as well as giving a hand to lift up blighted areas and communities across the country.
Employment laws and free movement meant anyone could look for work or a new life or just love by exploring the eu countries hassle free. We could mingle with our 'neighbours' and forge new friendships at every level. Sharing cultures naturally and easily can only be a good thing surely? More room to grow and far less chance of aggro between the nations. After all, history tells us it's the 'little man' that gets the shit end of that particular stick.
I've always looked at our (UK) governments as dangerous and untrustworthy, although living through the thatcher years and then blair shitting on us that's no surprise. The EU seemed to actually care about the poor, the workers and general health and well being of people. In this regard i saw them as a 'safety net' against the shit tricks and lies successive uk governments have laid on us.

Probably help if i tell you i think of socialism as a philosophy that aims to govern with equality and 'kindness' and not have profit at any cost as its major goal.
 
blueparrot said:
Not really to bring the people with you then you satisfy the 25/30 million in the middle, not the 2 million or so at the either edge . Just because those 2 million make the most noise and shout the most they aren’t the common view.
If we’d gone the Norway option then yes the ERG and Daily Express, and I gues some arch remainers would have made noise and shouted about BRINO.
The fact is though impact on most people would have been minimal and most would have just got on with it.
As it is the impact won’t be minimal it will be noticed over time by many and there will be a constant push to re negotiate things, a constant reason to compare our Brexit with N. Ireland’s different Brexit especially.
A Brexit appealing to the vocal fringes can never be a good idea.
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Excellent post

I have a lot of agreement with this post - even though it is dealing with a different aspect of 'management arrangements' to what @Saddleworth2 and myself have mentioned and are experienced in.

We are essentially commenting on 'once the scope and intended outcomes/delivery' etc. are established - how a change programme should be managed.

But - you raise an excellent point - because before you get too far into implementation planning you need to decide the outcomes to be delivered.

What May should have done - right up front is an 'options appraisal' and I would guess that of (let's say) 10 options that would have been considered then only 3 or 4 would have been short-listed and none of those would have been the option of No-Deal and perhaps also not the deal that has been achieved.

The BRINO option would have certainly been on the short-list - as would Norway and others that reflect close-alignment. The 'contingency' of Remaining would have been kept alive as well.

And - again you are right - if we had achieved for example @Mëtal Bikër 's desire for an EFTA solution - then the majority of people would have been satisfied and the extremists on both sides would have been left to whinge. There may have been some residual 'rumblings' - but this would have been ignored and the populace would have moved on.

I certainly would have been happy - in fact I would have expressed myself as being delighted. Notwithstanding that I am far more delighted with the actual outcome.

I come from the starting point of never thinking that we would leave - and then (even worse) in 2017-2019 thinking that we were going to end up in May's fucked up unfettered backstop.

I would have taken an EFTA arrangement in an heartbeat back in the dark days

You are indeed - spot on

The entire episode has been a series of fuckups and incompetence due to being driven and affected by self-interest groups.

The end result - what we have now - feels like some perverse game of 'musical chairs' - with this deal being the last one to get a seat - pure luck.
 
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Saddleworth2 said:
Then by that logic, remaining wouldn’t have worked either. I agree though that spending time after th3 referendum on agreeing the type of Brexit might have made things smother but no chance of that when Article 50 was triggered.
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You will see that I have just agree wholeheartedly with @blueparrot 's post

The options appraisal that I referred to would have determined the timing of issuing A50 - there is no semblance of professional management discernible in this whole journey - but I bet a lot of money was paid to consultants.
 
mcfc1632 said:
Good reply Rascal - but to help - I think that @Didsbury Dave was just seeking to use your previous analysis to confirm his view that: "..... most idiots are pro-Brexit."

Just trying to save you some time and effort in the future;-)
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I think what i was trying to say in a polite and reasoned manner was most people are idiots when it comes to Brexit be that both leave and remain.

It struck me from the start that BREXIT was the ball in a high stakes game of ideological Ping Pong between rival factions aiming to control the amount of capitalist influence in the governance of the nation. It was never really about fish, or blue passports, or controlling borders, or sovereignty, it was always about which faction could gain most influence and we the people were thrown metaphorical fish to argue about whilst the real game was played in circles we are not privy to or ever be likely to be privy to.

Therefore I include myself in the idiot category because I have chewed on as many of the metaphorical fish as anyone else.
 
blueparrot said:
Personally I put a lot of blame on Corbyn and the Labour party.They had the opportunity to use the Conservative slim majority to push for a cross party solution, along with tory rebels.That would have achieved a better kind of brexit. Once the election lost that chance then thar chance was lost.
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Again - absolutely spot on IMO

I have said that the 'credit' or 'blame' for the actual outcome should be placed in a number of areas - a view that has previously been largely rejected

There were so many opportunities to agree a BRINO or at least a closely aligned deal. Those chances were lost due to the Remain factions deciding to go instead 'all-in' to reverse Brexit.

And it was the Remain factions - people bang on about the ERG - but they were utterly impotent and meaningless - if Corbyn and others had opted for a BRINO deal - they only got any importance in preventing May acting alone

Back between 2016 - Summer 2019 - the chances of this eventual deal being the outcome would have been miniscule - too small to be even considered.

Hindsight they say is a wonderful (and an also uncomfortable) thing. I genuinely do not make that comment in a 'being clever' way - I suggest that there are a few people like Grieve, Soubry and others that will be keeping a low profile.

I would have been happy with an outcome that meant that we were simply (genuinely) clear of the risks of integration - as it is I feel just simply lucky - like I have won a raffle that I did not buy a ticket for
 
mcfc1632 said:
Sorry - and I do not mean to turn the thread into a discussion on the best practices of managing change/transformation programmes, but.....

You are missing the point(s) completely with those comments

What you have set out with the 16.2 - 17.4 bit would be just one of the many challenges for one of the workstreams within a change programme to deal with - and probably anywhere the top priorities/risks of the programme in planning to achieve its 'Go-Live'

Your comments I suggest just reflect your denial that Brexit has happened - only IMO
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Just for fun, no waffling - what would your virtual workstream have come up with to "deal with" the 16.2 - 17.4 problem? (Bear in mind that you're unusual and most of the people working on the workstream would have voted Remain. What would be the remit of the workstream? How to reconcile the irreconcilable or produce another stage in the political lies about Brexit?)

I am serious. I don't believe you could even set the parameters for that workstream without having a workstream to set the parameters, especially as from the outset you didn't want the only easy way to do it - BRINO.
 
Ban-jani said:
If they had done that, they’d have maybe gained/retained supporters in the red wall but lost a lot to the LibDems, just off the top of my head we’d have ended up with a hung parliament and probably Parliament being blocked for some time over the issue.
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Absolutely - what has occurred could only ever have happened if it was the policy of a government with a thumping majority - and no need to accommodate the view of any other group.

It really is staggering that events unravelled as they did.
 
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