Political relations between UK-EU

[Metal Biker]

I know, it's now getting beyond lunacy, and talking to folk who will simply never change a view that's now utterly redundant is pointless. All this now
is the same old tripe about staying in, how we WILL be this that or the other,
and predictions about the next deal being shite even before we've started talking about it. As none of the doom ever happens, there's not much point.
So, it's back to all the other shit on here for a while, until the next EU humiliation occurs, which judging by the comments coming from Europe, it may not be a long while;)

I'm sure at the time Farriers and Coach Builders lamented the rise of the Automobile industry, too. The world moves on, the EU model is a 20th century relic, trading openly and freely with the world is the way forward. I'm sure they're still grieving that their perfect European Federalist dream isn't going to include the UK (when they could easily just migrate to Europe and hey ho, dream fulfilled, but I digress)

Options are there, opportunities await, lamenting over past events you cannot change gets you nowhere. Global trade is increasing, the challenge is in making it carbon neutral, but when you consider that the EU wished to increase its trade links with North America and the Pacific themselves, but they never objected to it, tends to lend truth to the theory that they just hate seeing the UK progress on its own and would prefer it to be suppressed by an EU Parliament calling all the shots.

This past week should have highlighted to them what a disaster that would be.

 

[Metal Biker]

I'm sure all of the companies that are struggling are overjoyed at the brave new world you lot have helped bring about. It's a mess. It didn't have to be a mess, but we ended up with Boris Johnson's brexit, which is about as thought through as everything else the man does. The deal he put in place is a joke, as will become increasingly apparent over the next 6 months.

I'm sure all the struggling companies that have now found a new lease of life thanks to these trade arrangements and the Seepy Teepeepee announcement are as well, but you never thought about THOSE businesses, did you, nope just the ones affected by brexit, never those affected by our continued membership of the EU.

People like you played a part in a BoJo brexit, don't forget. Had you accepted the result, become committed to leaving the EU and gone forward with a positive brexit Parliament and Government choice (which were available at the time, but you chose to ignore them in favour of "fuck bwexit, FBPE and remaining") then our way of leaving the EU could have been sorted much sooner and much more amicably. Be proud of what you helped achieve, don't shy away from it.

 

[bluejon]

I'm sure all the struggling companies that have now found a new lease of life thanks to these trade arrangements and the Seepy Teepeepee announcement are as well, but you never thought about THOSE businesses, did you, nope just the ones affected by brexit, never those affected by our continued membership of the EU.

People like you played a part in a BoJo brexit, don't forget. Had you accepted the result, become committed to leaving the EU and gone forward with a positive brexit Parliament and Government choice (which were available at the time, but you chose to ignore them in favour of "fuck bwexit, FBPE and remaining") then our way of leaving the EU could have been sorted much sooner and much more amicably. Be proud of what you helped achieve, don't shy away from it.

The reason May's deal didn't go through is because the ERG group voted against it. Blaming Labour or remain voters, who didn't want brexit, is fantastically laughable. May had a majority (if you take into account the dodgy deal they did with the NI loons), it was her MPs who stopped her deal. And I'm not proud of anything over brexit. It's a stain on our nation and one that will take decades to recover from.

 

[metalblue]

Glad to help (I think!)...

A reminder of his comment:

what will their view be in 6 - 10 years time when Australia and Canada want to start making rules and insisting that the other members follow them? When Japan start wanting to issue quality controls on foodstuffs and so on? Will that be another bloc there is a 20 year campaign to leave? Eventually you run out of trading blocs and have to come to terms with the fact that you are the snarky cunts who wants to have your cake and eat it and that constant arguing to make our economy smaller means nobody wants us anyway? Maybe we should start our own bloc now? Oh wait we can't we have already hived off NI and Gibraltar ...... we will never learn

I understood him to be wondering at the Brexit people getting excited about this. We've escaped all the EU rules (or at least we've got a deal whereby we stay tariff-free until we start changing rules) but said people are now welcoming a deal that already involves agreements on standards that (unlike the EU rules) we didn't help make (and in many cases had pressed for as an EU member). So his point was rather the opposite of your take - not necesarily against CPTPP but just surprised at the enthusiasm for (with no public consultation let alone a referendum) applying to join a distant "bloc" of countries (most of whom we already have a FTA with already - rolled over from our EU deals).

"The benefits of joining the CPTPP are also likely to depend on how successful the UK is at replacing, or ‘rolling over’, the existing FTAs it enjoys as an EU member state. The EU has signed FTAs with all of the CPTPP countries except Malaysia, Brunei, Australia and New Zealand, which the UK is therefore party to until the transition period ends. If the UK is able to roll over these existing EU–CPTPP agreements – admittedly far from guaranteed given the cool responses to the suggestion from Canada, Japan, Mexico, Singapore and Vietnam – the benefits of CPTPP membership could become quite limited."
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/trade-cptpp

True, there's no "foreign court" for disputes, and I'm sure the Express and Mail would be the first to welcome the "ad hoc arbitration panel" ruling against the UK in any dispute.

Japan’s minister in charge of negotiations on the trade pact, Yasutoshi Nishimura, expressed hope on Twitter that Britain will “demonstrate its strong determination to fully comply with high-standard obligations” of the free trade accord. Does that sound like what a fully sovereign nation would agree to? Some Japanese functionary taking the piss out of our signing up for a club but not liking the rules? (Maybe he was serious and did mean he was sure he would comply...)

Appreciate the lengthy reply and please forgive the short one in return.

You infer people who voted leave are opposed to standards. I do not agree. Standards are essential in allowing product to flow freely between member nations of a trading bloc. Where standards become a problem is where they are a crude mechanism to create administrative barriers to tradeas we are seeing with Brexit. The EU know full well the UK complies (indeed exceeds) with animal welfare yet still insists on a vets stamp as an example of administrative barriers. Of course the pro-EU among us will say “well their only applying their rules” but they are unnecessarily excessive in a lot of cases for the UK.

But standards can go beyond product, they can be used as a set of membership criteria to ensure certain human rights are upheld or whatever. Again these are perfectly acceptable, in the same way if we started locking up a section of society I’d expect countries to refuse to trade with us, irrespective of any trade agreement. I don’t see the difference.

 

[mcfc1632]

Glad to help (I think!)...

A reminder of his comment:

what will their view be in 6 - 10 years time when Australia and Canada want to start making rules and insisting that the other members follow them? When Japan start wanting to issue quality controls on foodstuffs and so on? Will that be another bloc there is a 20 year campaign to leave? Eventually you run out of trading blocs and have to come to terms with the fact that you are the snarky cunts who wants to have your cake and eat it and that constant arguing to make our economy smaller means nobody wants us anyway? Maybe we should start our own bloc now? Oh wait we can't we have already hived off NI and Gibraltar ...... we will never learn

I understood him to be wondering at the Brexit people getting excited about this. We've escaped all the EU rules (or at least we've got a deal whereby we stay tariff-free until we start changing rules) but said people are now welcoming a deal that already involves agreements on standards that (unlike the EU rules) we didn't help make (and in many cases had pressed for as an EU member). So his point was rather the opposite of your take - not necesarily against CPTPP but just surprised at the enthusiasm for (with no public consultation let alone a referendum) applying to join a distant "bloc" of countries (most of whom we already have a FTA with already - rolled over from our EU deals).

"The benefits of joining the CPTPP are also likely to depend on how successful the UK is at replacing, or ‘rolling over’, the existing FTAs it enjoys as an EU member state. The EU has signed FTAs with all of the CPTPP countries except Malaysia, Brunei, Australia and New Zealand, which the UK is therefore party to until the transition period ends. If the UK is able to roll over these existing EU–CPTPP agreements – admittedly far from guaranteed given the cool responses to the suggestion from Canada, Japan, Mexico, Singapore and Vietnam – the benefits of CPTPP membership could become quite limited."
www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/trade-cptpp

True, there's no "foreign court" for disputes, and I'm sure the Express and Mail would be the first to welcome the "ad hoc arbitration panel" ruling against the UK in any dispute.

Japan’s minister in charge of negotiations on the trade pact, Yasutoshi Nishimura, expressed hope on Twitter that Britain will “demonstrate its strong determination to fully comply with high-standard obligations” of the free trade accord. Does that sound like what a fully sovereign nation would agree to? Some Japanese functionary taking the piss out of our signing up for a club but not liking the rules? (Maybe he was serious and did mean he was sure he would comply...)

This - my reply to @bluthrunthru - addresses your post:

TBF - I think that people understood clearly the point that you were making - just found it to be a fanciful load of bollocks likely arising out of frustration at the penny dropping for you

But - to help with your question:

1. Crazy as your idea sounds - if it would come to pass - based on the EU - it is at least 30 years away

2. It would likely not come to pass because there is fuck all sign that the madness that infected the EU ideologues has spread anywhere else

 

[Vic]

No mate, the EU countries have endangered their populations because of
the actions of their commission, ie; EU, which we are no longer bound by.
This has now, across the continent, been a huge fillip for Eurosceptic parties.
That's one massive benefit, and the self harm has been inflicted by the EU.

Just checking that you're sorry that the EU didn't get in first for priority delivery for vaccine... Wouldn't that have killed some British people?

 

[mcfc1632]

No mate, the EU countries have endangered their populations because of
the actions of their commission, ie; EU, which we are no longer bound by.
This has now, across the continent, been a huge fillip for Eurosceptic parties.
That's one massive benefit, and the self harm has been inflicted by the EU.

Think the latest opinion poll in France is down to 52-48% - I really like that split;-)

This wouldn't have influenced Macron impacting the rest of the EU by wanting to get an heroic French vaccine would it?

 

[BobKowalski]

.... The EU know full well the UK complies (indeed exceeds) with animal welfare yet still insists on a vets stamp as an example of administrative barriers. Of course the pro-EU among us will say “well their only applying their rules” but they are unnecessarily excessive in a lot of cases for the UK.

But standards can go beyond product, they can be used as a set of membership criteria to ensure certain human rights are upheld or whatever. Again these are perfectly acceptable, in the same way if we started locking up a section of society I’d expect countries to refuse to trade with us, irrespective of any trade agreement. I don’t see the difference.

The rules are being applied because we deliberately declined to negotiate exemptions from them.

What you are seeing in action is the deliberate choice of the UK Govt.

We wanted the opportunity to diverge from EU standards, the consequence of that is we did not legally commit to EU standards, thus no UK produced goods or product meets EU legal standards and is therefore subject to checks.

 

[Metal Biker]

The reason May's deal didn't go through is because the ERG group voted against it. Blaming Labour or remain voters, who didn't want brexit, is fantastically laughable. May had a majority (if you take into account the dodgy deal they did with the NI loons), it was her MPs who stopped her deal. And I'm not proud of anything over brexit. It's a stain on our nation and one that will take decades to recover from.

Labour MP's also voted against it or abstained. Had they voted in favour it would have passed. YOU didn't want May's deal either, because that would have meant brexit realised. You tasted blood, the longer the affair dragged on, the more the people would change their mind and vote in a pro-remain, pro-EU Government. That's what you assumed, wasn't it, at the time? That illusion was shattered wasn't it, in December 2019.

I remember it well. The stain on our nation is the embarrassment of those who fly the EU flag to show 'solidarity', yet claim to love the UK. Those who spend every waking moment insulting its citizens for how they voted in a free, open and fair referendum and had spent the best part of 4 years decrying the public as stupid, uninformed, merely because their reasons for leaving didn't match your reasons for remaining.

Look at others who voted to remain; they've moved on, accepted it but are still being critical where they need to be. They aren't carrying on like kids having a tantrum making hyperbolic statements like "the biggest act of self harm" or "it will take decades to recover from". We've left one trade bloc which became far too political, have retained trade deals with those nations the EU concluded (which you all said we would not be able to do after brexit...), and have applied to join a £9trn trade bloc, which has already seen public acceptance of our application from Japan, Vietnam, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Is this what you're referring to?

Scotch tariffs ‘to fall under deal with Asia’

Scotch whisky tariffs will be cut in Asia under a new British trade deal with Pacific countries, the international trade secretary has pledged.

www.thetimes.co.uk

No. Unless the USA has moved to the Pacific trading block.

 

[Metal Biker]

No. Unless the USA has moved to the Pacific trading block.

Then that's a US/EU issue, nothing to do with brexit then is it.

You can't blame the US themselves imposing a tarriff on scotch whisky imported from the EU over a row about Airbus on the UK leaving the EU.

 

[mcfc1632]

The reason May's deal didn't go through is because the ERG group voted against it. Blaming Labour or remain voters, who didn't want brexit, is fantastically laughable. May had a majority (if you take into account the dodgy deal they did with the NI loons), it was her MPs who stopped her deal. And I'm not proud of anything over brexit. It's a stain on our nation and one that will take decades to recover from.

Nope - this is simply easily proven bollocks

Had Labour voted on any occasion then the deal would have gone through

Facts and reality can be such an inconvenience

 

[bluejon]

Nope - this is simply easily proven bollocks

Had Labour voted on any occasion then the deal would have gone through

Facts and reality can be such an inconvenience

I'm aware of that, but do you also accept that if the mega hard core brexit nutters, you know, the ones who actually wanted this, had voted for May's deal, then the deal would have gone through? Yes or no answer please.

 

[bluejon]

Labour MP's also voted against it or abstained. Had they voted in favour it would have passed. YOU didn't want May's deal either, because that would have meant brexit realised. You tasted blood, the longer the affair dragged on, the more the people would change their mind and vote in a pro-remain, pro-EU Government. That's what you assumed, wasn't it, at the time? That illusion was shattered wasn't it, in December 2019.

I remember it well. The stain on our nation is the embarrassment of those who fly the EU flag to show 'solidarity', yet claim to love the UK. Those who spend every waking moment insulting its citizens for how they voted in a free, open and fair referendum and had spent the best part of 4 years decrying the public as stupid, uninformed, merely because their reasons for leaving didn't match your reasons for remaining.

Look at others who voted to remain; they've moved on, accepted it but are still being critical where they need to be. They aren't carrying on like kids having a tantrum making hyperbolic statements like "the biggest act of self harm" or "it will take decades to recover from". We've left one trade bloc which became far too political, have retained trade deals with those nations the EU concluded (which you all said we would not be able to do after brexit...), and have applied to join a £9trn trade bloc, which has already seen public acceptance of our application from Japan, Vietnam, Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

It is going to take decades to recover from this. That's not open for debate. You lot won, we got to make things more shit. Well done you.

 

[Metal Biker]

It is going to take decades to recover from this. That's not open for debate. You lot won, we got to make things more shit. Well done you.

Thanks, we'll accept the plaudits then when absolutely nothing cataclysmic happens.
We'll be the ones to build and forge new relationships and partnerships with the world, and you can lament for your EU chummies looking like a tit.

We can be the ones taking the praise for looking to the future, you can be the ones refusing to let go of the past. I know which one i'd rather be. :)

 

[BobKowalski]

I'm aware of that, but do you also accept that if the mega hard core brexit nutters, you know, the ones who actually wanted this, had voted for May's deal, then the deal would have gone through? Yes or no answer please.

Yes.

Am I doing this right?

 

[Vic]

I'm sure all the struggling companies that have now found a new lease of life thanks to these trade arrangements and the Seepy Teepeepee announcement are as well, but you never thought about THOSE businesses, did you, nope just the ones affected by brexit, never those affected by our continued membership of the EU.

People like you played a part in a BoJo brexit, don't forget. Had you accepted the result, become committed to leaving the EU and gone forward with a positive brexit Parliament and Government choice (which were available at the time, but you chose to ignore them in favour of "fuck bwexit, FBPE and remaining") then our way of leaving the EU could have been sorted much sooner and much more amicably. Be proud of what you helped achieve, don't shy away from it.

"Struggling companies that have now found a new lease of life..." Who have you got in mind?

(Don't even think about the Scotch whisky industry - they already had free trade with Japan under the EU deal, which is why the UK Govt was pleased that Scotch "will continue to enjoy" tariff-free access.)

 

[mcfc1632]

Any future trade deal, arrangement, bloc admission, partnership that the UK engages in will forever be shit on without analysis or discussion by these lunatics simply because "it's not the EU!!" No other objections given its "just not as good as what we had wiv da EU!"

If the Seepy Teepeepee was so bad, why was the EU trying to get in it themselves?

As January as progressed into February and there is more evidence of EU bureaucracy and incompetence - then the usual suspects are getting more desperate

The way they keep a sharp and hopeful eye out for the apocalypse to arrive and in the meantime have to 'make do' - puts me in mind of Baden-Powell awaiting the relief of Mafeking

 

[metalblue]

I'm aware of that, but do you also accept that if the mega hard core brexit nutters, you know, the ones who actually wanted this, had voted for May's deal, then the deal would have gone through? Yes or no answer please.

You do recall it was a straight in or out vote? It was only after the vote was lost did we start seeing the question reframed and “soft” brexit appearing as an apparent “option”. So no they weren’t “mega hardcore brexit nutters” were they?

 

[bluejon]

Yes.

Am I doing this right?

See, there's even an example answer here. Let's see how he gets on.....