Predator drones

[talkativesprout]

Is supporting and/or partaking in Jihad against the law in islamic states?

 

[Josh Blue]

The guys that makes those drones are billionaires now

The war on 'terror' has made a lot of men very rich. Makes you think.

I read something on why the world needs war especially capitalism. That's another legacy from WW2 as well

Yes mate, there is a lot of money to be made for some very powerful men during times of war.

 

[rick773]

I should imagine that the victims of 7/7, 9/11,Bali, Madrid,Boston all thought the same.
If you agree so much with these guys, why not move to Afghanistan, Yemen, Irag and fight the good fight?

Are those events the cause of our war or the effect of how terrible the west is towards basically everywhere else? Not to mention I think a lot of people's odd/closed minded views on Islam/Arabs in general probably pushes a lot of non terrorists towards extremism and I can't say I disagree. Don't worry though I'm on the next flight out to get my jihad on

I agree, but what do we do to stop it?
Every country has been fucked over by another, that is the way of the worlds history.
These fanatics are not going to stop until they have what they want ( an Islamist world, where we conform or die), and i am talking about the fanatics, not normal Muslims.
What do we do with the fanatics?

But if for every 1 fanatic we kill 10-30 non fanatics , which in turn creates 5 more fanatics upset they lost loved ones , or even just upset someone randomly bombed their neighbourhood , when would it end. If we want to kill fanatics have people on the ground doing it. I'm not saying we should invade Pakistan but it taking out a terrorist is worth X amount of innocent lives would killing one be worth 10 or 15 western soldiers?

 

[Ducado]

It's always good to look at things through another perspective

First off

If the planes had not driven into the twin towers and other places in the US would the US be in Afghanistan?

The war on terror could stop right now, if the spiritual leaders of the various Salfi groups would call a halt, they have made no indication that they are even willing to stop

Killing Innocent civilians is not right, but neither is it right for combatants to hide among civilians

I sometimes feel that people start to get into hysterics and conspiracy theories, the fact is the US is not targeting civilians they are going after people who they perceive as the enemy

It may in the long term prove to be counter productive, but that's not my point, this is a war the US is waging, war is never pretty people get hurt

There may be lots of underpinning reasons as to why young men seem hell bent on blowing up the west, but that's not the point, as long as they are hell bent on this, the drone attacks will continue

I really think you are missing the point here.
You cannot use the 'war on terror' to justify a disproportionate targeting of civilians, and I find your glib 'war is never pretty people get hurt' to be somewhat offensive, because I'm fairly sure that if it was you cradling a dying loved one in their arms, then you wouldn't be so crass about indiscriminate killing.
There is never any ethical justification for killing innocent non-combatants as some kind of acceptable collateral damage of war, because once you abandon any concept of human life being precious, you put yourself on the same moral footing as the very terrorists you are fighting.

I am not missing any point, I was offering an alternate point of view, if you want to be offended by what I have said be my guest, there is nothing glib in what I said it is mealy a statement of fact, war is not pretty and clean and lots of people get hurt along the way

As far as I understand there is no deliberate targeting of civilians, that civilians get killed is true, but like I said from the US point of view it could all end rather quickly.

Before the US started this they were preaching their doctrine of hate, sending young men to blow themselves and others up, sat there doing nothing did not help the situation in fact in emboldened them to go even further in their war against the US and the West in general

I can't see what other options they have, you can't sit down and talk to them, they beleive we (all of us that don't subscribe to Salfisem) are the devil incarnate, leave them alone and they will plan more death and destruction

 

[pominoz]

The bit I highlighted.....why why why why oh why do you keep saying this?

Because it is the truth, there is an element that will not give up until we do.
Just as there are radical christians that need to be kept an eye on, and fought against.

Yes but these nutters are no threat. You need to realise they are a minority and have nothing to do with any major terror attack.

What do you class as a major terrorist attack?
I am sure that 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Boston, Madrid was a major attack to those involved.

 

[Skashion]

A good post and it highlights two of the biggest problems with modern warfare. Bizarrely, there are rules for warfare which most governments have signed up to. Soldiers of these countries have to follow these rules on how they engage in an “ethical” war.

“Terrorists” ignore these. “Terrorists” do not wear uniforms. “Terrorists” shield themselves with innocent members of the local population; they use women and children not only as shields, but also as weapons, particularly in suicide attacks. They stash weapons, equipment and personnel in schools and medical centres to profit from the press when these places are attacked. They plant shrapnel bombs in packed markets, which are usually filled with women and children.

It is not possible for a modern “ethical” army to fight terrorists and insurgents in a man to man battle. The war is dirty and it is deliberately made so, because for every soldier in the combat area, there is the world press. These “terrorists” are not stupid; they know how to use media to manipulate the situation. Nothing makes you choke on your morning cornflakes more than a dead child on the front page. And if anyone can get rid of or change a government they don’t like, then it’s those people reading that newspaper, the public, the voters.

Which is my second point. There is a very dirty war being fought here, but then war has always been dirty, the only thing that has really changed is the amount of media coverage, now you know it’s dirty, previously you didn’t. You can now ride the actual bomb in on YouTube, right through the house window, you can watch the chain-gun on the Apache attack helicopter rip up the enemy “technicals” in real time, as it happened, body parts and all. There was a recent thread on Bomber Command, when the RAF / USAAF were firebombing the civilian populations of the major German cities in WW2, if the hideous photographs and footage that exist of the aftermath of those raids was circulated everyday in media at the time, I wonder if that would have swayed the actions of the then government?

I'd rather you not think my post was good if this is your take on it. I'd rather you think it was stupid as I think yours is.

It is possible to fight terrorism, ethically, and not only should it be done so, but it must to be done so. If you know where terrorists are, send the special forces in, as they did against Bin Laden. Extract, try, establish guilt, sentence. You cannot beat terrorism, by being as bad or worse, because then you are not defeating it, you're being it. Western governments have made this mistake so many times in history. From Ireland to Iran, the British have made their enemies more powerful by creating martyrs and by creating power vacuums only to be surprised when they are filled by extremists.

 

[Josh Blue]

Because it is the truth, there is an element that will not give up until we do.
Just as there are radical christians that need to be kept an eye on, and fought against.

Yes but these nutters are no threat. You need to realise they are a minority and have nothing to do with any major terror attack.

What do you class as a major terrorist attack?
I am sure that 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Boston, Madrid was a major attack to those involved.

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

 

[dazdon]

We will only defeat extremism when we give everyone what they want.

This is impossible.

So there will always be extremists fighting a cause.

Humanity will never be a homogenous mass of like minded people who want the same thing and the fringe element will always try to change that by means of violence rightly or wrongly to the people who are asking them to submit.

 

[pominoz]

Yes but these nutters are no threat. You need to realise they are a minority and have nothing to do with any major terror attack.

What do you class as a major terrorist attack?
I am sure that 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Boston, Madrid was a major attack to those involved.

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

 

[Josh Blue]

What do you class as a major terrorist attack?
I am sure that 9/11, 7/7, Bali, Boston, Madrid was a major attack to those involved.

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

 

[Ragnarok]

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

Oh god,while i have heard that there were people who thought this, first time i am seeing someone who actually thinks like this

 

[Ducado]

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

 

[pominoz]

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

Pleased to say that i not bought a "newspaper" in years.
I read the Huffington post and others, i also read/watch your mate Hitchens ;)

 

[Ragnarok]

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

Just utter utter bullshit. Even if it were true, the motivation behind the terrorist attacks certainly wasnt this. It was to retaliate against US incusrions in the middle east and its support of Israel. I am no longer surprised at the irrational hatred of muslims by most people in the west, if this is what they believe.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Yes but those who planned and committed the act aren't doing it to take over the world and make everyone a muslim? Is this news to you?

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

Bwahahahaha! What utter tosh. These are just excuses Josh. They are waging a religious war on non-believers (and even other Muslims) in an attempt to enforce "their" form of Islam on others.

And here's the Bureau of Investigative Journalists figures on drone strikes:

Total reported killed: 2,537 - 3,581
Civilians reported killed: 411 - 884
Children reported killed: 168 - 197
Total reported injured: 1,174 - 1,465

That's one civilian death per 5 or 6 combatants. Of course civilian deaths are always tragic but it's hardly the massacre of the innocents that you're suggesting.

 

[Josh Blue]

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

I am actually very well read but I do agree everyone needs to read more. (Reading isn't everything). I am not going painting the picture of these people as freedom fighters, usually they are young brainwashed men fighting an older mans battle. All you have to do is watch the Martyr video's after attacks. They say loud and clear why they did it.

Any man who reads too much and uses his own brain too little falls into lazy habits of thinking - Albert Einstein<br /><br />-- Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:36 pm --<br /><br />

Yes it is, what was their motivation?.

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

Bwahahahaha! What utter tosh. These are just excuses Josh. They are waging a religious war on non-believers (and even other Muslims) in an attempt to enforce "their" form of Islam on others.

And here's the Bureau of Investigative Journalists figures on drone strikes:

Total reported killed: 2,537 - 3,581
Civilians reported killed: 411 - 884
Children reported killed: 168 - 197
Total reported injured: 1,174 - 1,465

That's one civilian death per 5 or 6 combatants. Of course civilian deaths are always tragic but it's hardly the massacre of the innocents that you're suggesting.

Tell that to the orphans, widows and wounded.

 

[Challenger1978]

U.S to stay out of middle eastern policy.

The support of Israel.

U.S foreign policy.

What have you been reading/watching btw?

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

Just utter utter bullshit. Even if it were true, the motivation behind the terrorist attacks certainly wasnt this. It was to retaliate against US incusrions in the middle east and its support of Israel. I am no longer surprised at the irrational hatred of muslims by most people in the west, if this is what they believe.

Al-Qaeda's current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries. Everything they do between now and their end game is just them moving chess piece around while trying to engineer their victory.

 

[Josh Blue]

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

Just utter utter bullshit. Even if it were true, the motivation behind the terrorist attacks certainly wasnt this. It was to retaliate against US incusrions in the middle east and its support of Israel. I am no longer surprised at the irrational hatred of muslims by most people in the west, if this is what they believe.

Al-Qaeda's current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries. Everything they do between now and their end game is just them moving chess piece around while trying to engineer their victory.

Who told you this and who told you Al-Qaeda is one group?

 

[Rocket-footed kolarov]

You need to read a bit more Josh, there is one aim and that is first to get every Muslim Country to subscribe to their particular beliefs, and after that the world, it's a bit ambitious I grant you but there you go, the US is just a convenient target, you seem to be painting these people as some kind of freedom fighters, I am afraid they are anything but!

Just utter utter bullshit. Even if it were true, the motivation behind the terrorist attacks certainly wasnt this. It was to retaliate against US incusrions in the middle east and its support of Israel. I am no longer surprised at the irrational hatred of muslims by most people in the west, if this is what they believe.

Al-Qaeda's current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries. Everything they do between now and their end game is just them moving chess piece around while trying to engineer their victory.

Yes, this is it. But it is not just Islam it has to be their Islam, this has happened in all ideologies that prescribe(d) global domination; communism, Christianity etc there can be no pluralism no alternative interpretation. Just as communists tried to export their ideologies to political conflicts such as independence movements so too are Islamist groups exporting Jihad.

 

[Challenger1978]

Just utter utter bullshit. Even if it were true, the motivation behind the terrorist attacks certainly wasnt this. It was to retaliate against US incusrions in the middle east and its support of Israel. I am no longer surprised at the irrational hatred of muslims by most people in the west, if this is what they believe.

Al-Qaeda's current goal is to establish a pan-Islamic Caliphate throughout the world by working with allied Islamic extremist groups to overthrow regimes it deems "non-Islamic" and expelling Westerners and non-Muslims from Muslim countries. Everything they do between now and their end game is just them moving chess piece around while trying to engineer their victory.

Who told you this and who told you Al-Qaeda is one group?

Firstly reread the first sentence.

As for who told me this, well take that up with Al-Quaeda as they stated this was their goal back in the late 90's. I'm sure if you dig enough on the internet you'll find the official video/press release.