Russian invasion of Ukraine

[jim tolmies perm]

This is not true. Very important power plant just the other side of the border to where the missile landed.

Ahh , well if so it was deliberate abd the plausible deniability card goes out of the window..

 

[metalblue]

Russia does not want NATO in its back yard. Zelensky is a prick by wanting to join NATO. Look at what America did to Vietnam for decades for wanting to become communist/follow Russia. Look at the sanctions still against Cuba for having non free market ideals. Look at what America does with countries in central and southern America when they don’t follow American values, for example Venezuela. Not a fan of Russia but if Canada invited Russian military and presence how would America have reacted. Probably 100 times worse than Russian reaction. In the long Russia will lose this war, particularly as it can’t compete with the backing Ukraine is getting. Zelensky aborts brown nosing America and this NATO wannabe pact the war is over.

I always though the US had the hump with Cuba for allowing Russian missiles to be placed on their soil (which the US blockaded) and continued to punish them under the banner of “subsequent crimes against humanity”. Turns out it was a lack of free market ideals.

Unlike the Cuban missile crisis the modern missile capability means it doesn’t matter where it sits and Russia like the US has a strategic land, air and sea nuclear force. Ukraine joining NATO would not have automatically created a permanent American military presence either - there wasn’t one in Latvia, Lithuania nor Estonia prior to the Russian invasion. The US had created some airfields and the such should the unthinkable happen and Russia attack NATO but was more about yay you’re in NATO have a new runway. Poland I think was the furthest east - ie Russia already had a buffer between it and US troops and unless it intended to attack anyone on its western flank then it could carry on raping and pillaging its own lands to the detriment of its own citizens.

As to who is the prick in all of this it’s Putin and Russia. If the USSR had been successful to peoples way and quality of life perhaps all the former puppet goverments of the USSR empire wouldn’t have been desperately trying to get in bed with the west. They know far better than any of us what Russia is and what Russia is capable of. We look in horror at the crimes committed attempting to suppress a population in Ukraine - I doubt they do, it’s the Russian playbook and has been for over 100 years now - 1917, where time stopped still in Russia.

 

[jim tolmies perm]

Was always one of the viable options of what happened. Accidental.

There was a comment made by a former general of the British army (Mike Jackson maybe, famously refused to start WW3 in Kosovo War) who said that if Putin wanted to escalate by hitting a NATO country targeting a farm probably wouldn’t be top of the Russians list.

I think all sides will be glad, Zelensky obviously less - like Britain (and her foreign volunteers) during WW2 we held the Germans at bay, we got limited battlefield success in North Africa but we needed the US to go beyond mere lend/lease for the war to be turned decisively.

And the Russians knew it was possible ...hence their deliberate provocation

 

[metalblue]

Russia already HAS NATO in it's backyard. It borders Latvia, Finland, Lithuania and Poland around Kaliningrad. What the hell has United States past foreign policy have to do with Russia's invasion of Ukraine? NATO is not just the United States, but 30 total members.

Zelensky is not a prick for wanting to join NATO; by Ukraine joining NATO Russia knows it's chances of invading in the future are non-existant as that is a battle Russia could not win by any means. I'm guessing you know this too and it upsets you, hence your weird American rhetoric.

Where US foreign policy failed was after the Cold War. The US failed, I don’t think with any malice, to engage Russia as an equal and give it a greater role. Russia was desperate for it - indeed Bush muted inviting Yeltsin to join NATO under a different banner I think. Disbanding NATO due to the adversary nature of the name to Russia and creating a similar role with the European security council with US and Russian involvement would have been ballsy but given us a new history. There was a small window, the US failed to capitalise on the Cold War peace, Gorbachev was under pressure from the hardliners, Yeltsin projected a hardline domestically but was desperate to be seen as an equal and join the club, our clubs. Two Russian presidents the US didn’t engage properly. The result is someone like Putin.

 

[jim tolmies perm]

So the theory is that Putin did this in order to provoke Nato and thereby lose the war quicker, which is to his advantage?

OK...

Putin knows he can spin it however he wants...he'll still get away with it
A blatant attempt at adventurism gone horribly wrong...end of

 

[Johnny Mars Bar]

Russia does not want NATO in its back yard. Zelensky is a prick by wanting to join NATO. Look at what America did to Vietnam for decades for wanting to become communist/follow Russia. Look at the sanctions still against Cuba for having non free market ideals. Look at what America does with countries in central and southern America when they don’t follow American values, for example Venezuela. Not a fan of Russia but if Canada invited Russian military and presence how would America have reacted. Probably 100 times worse than Russian reaction. In the long Russia will lose this war, particularly as it can’t compete with the backing Ukraine is getting. Zelensky aborts brown nosing America and this NATO wannabe pact the war is over.

Been on the vodka, comrade?

 

[Metal Biker]

Where US foreign policy failed was after the Cold War. The US failed, I don’t think with any malice, to engage Russia as an equal and give it a greater role. Russia was desperate for it - indeed Bush muted inviting Yeltsin to join NATO under a different banner I think. Disbanding NATO due to the adversary nature of the name to Russia and creating a similar role with the European security council with US and Russian involvement would have been ballsy but given us a new history. There was a small window, the US failed to capitalise on the Cold War peace, Gorbachev was under pressure from the hardliners, Yeltsin projected a hardline domestically but was desperate to be seen as an equal and join the club, our clubs. Two Russian presidents the US didn’t engage properly. The result is someone like Putin.

Totally agree. The Perestroika period should have also seen the vast reduction of Russia's international nuclear threat, and whilst START was encouraging it never really got off the ground to reduce that threat.

That remains the only reason why people still 'fear' Russia. Waiting for someone like Putin to come along, someone who sees their nuclear arsenal as a viable option in warfare, was always going to be a risk.

 

[metalblue]

And the Russians knew it was possible ...hence their deliberate provocation

I don’t think this was mate. At least that’s the tune being played now. Whilst I’m sure many NATO leaders, nay world leaders, are starting to breathe a sigh of relief I do not believe they would cover this up and say it was anything other than the Russians if it was them.

Be interesting to see what Russia makes of this domestically though through the media and telegraph channels - wouldn’t be surprised to see them indicate it was them a sort of “Russian bear hits Poland who cry to US but US too weak to send troops in” narrative

 

[BerkshireBlue]

The trajectory of the missile should be pretty simple to prove and from where it originated using satellite and radar data, the yanks probably have satellite coverage of virtually all of Ukraine.

This isn't CSI mate it's real life the only thing they'll have to go off is the fragments which seem to show it's an S300 which both sides have

 

[BerkshireBlue]

Of course it can be proved. Just like it was proven the Russians shot down a fucking passenger jet yet too many leaders were too mard arsed to do anything about it.

Bullies need to be stood up to and kicked the shit out of. The same is true in primary school as in global politics.

That was only proved due to the missile being only used by Russians in the area in this case both countries used the same missile