Scottish independence

[JackFlash74]

The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.

I understand that, but we can't do anything about that. Our voting influence and therefore our ability to make our government accountable for this are zero.

 

[TGR]

Erm, isn't it all because "there are more giant pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs" because of the legacy from Thatcher. So float off Scotland from the UK and Westminster has a Conservative majority ?
Simples!

Oh my...
You have got it in one!
A stroke of genius by 'Call Me Dave'
He ain't as dumb as he looks...

 

[TGR]

The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.

You should send this in a wee letter to the BT campaign. Never read as much nonsensical patronising snide in all my life.

So just vote ''Yes' and fuck off!

 

[ayrshire_blue]

The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.

You should send this in a wee letter to the BT campaign. Never read as much nonsensical patronising snide in all my life.

So just vote ''Yes' and fuck off!

How very aggressive. U ok m8?

 

[TGR]

You should send this in a wee letter to the BT campaign. Never read as much nonsensical patronising snide in all my life.

So just vote ''Yes' and fuck off!

How very aggressive. U ok m8?

If you don't like how it is then simply vote 'Yes'
Your choice.
Put up or shut up.
Simples.

 

[Len Rum]

Erm, isn't it all because "there are more giant pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs" because of the legacy from Thatcher. So float off Scotland from the UK and Westminster has a Conservative majority ?
Simples!

Oh my...
You have got it in one!
A stroke of genius by 'Call Me Dave'
He ain't as dumb as he looks...

Oh dear you are one little Englander.
Do you honestly think 'Call me Dave' wants to go down in history as the PM on who's watch the Union broke up. A massive loss of face and prestige to The Tory party and GB if this happens.
There are some things that are bigger than your little Tory vs Labour world.

 

[BlueTony]

To be honest I cannot understand why a tiny minority of the population is allowed to vote on the break up of the United Kingdom.

We, allegedly, live in a democratic country surely we should all get a vote on whether Scotland can leave the union ( judging by some of the comments on here this may actually help the yes vote ).

 

[aguero93:20]

To be honest I cannot understand why a tiny minority of the population is allowed to vote on the break up of the United Kingdom.

We, allegedly, live in a democratic country surely we should all get a vote on whether Scotland can leave the union ( judging by some of the comments on here this may actually help the yes vote ).

It's their country within the union, why should the English get to vote on it? You (England) forced us (Ireland) to stay within the union for 50 years when it was a UK parliament vote despite a blanket return of nationalist MPs here and look how well that turned out.

 

[Gabriel]

To be honest I cannot understand why a tiny minority of the population is allowed to vote on the break up of the United Kingdom.

We, allegedly, live in a democratic country surely we should all get a vote on whether Scotland can leave the union ( judging by some of the comments on here this may actually help the yes vote ).

And presumably, just for the sake of consistency, you would want the entire European Union to vote in any UK referendum on breaking away from the EU.

 

[bennyblue]

1/3 for the no vote is absolutley stealing money from the bookies, im not into this narrow victory either, i would be very surprised if the yes get 40% of the vote, so im leaving myself open here so any pro yes voters can tell or explain to me the why it should be a yes vote and its benefits to the Scottish people as opposed to the better Together campaign

 

[TGR]

Erm, isn't it all because "there are more giant pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs" because of the legacy from Thatcher. So float off Scotland from the UK and Westminster has a Conservative majority ?
Simples!

Oh my...
You have got it in one!
A stroke of genius by 'Call Me Dave'
He ain't as dumb as he looks...

Oh dear you are one little Englander.
Do you honestly think 'Call me Dave' wants to go down in history as the PM on who's watch the Union broke up. A massive loss of face and prestige to The Tory party and GB if this happens.
There are some things that are bigger than your little Tory vs Labour world.

You just don't get it do you?
Cameron is a professional politician.
A 'Yes' vote would be absolutely ideal for his party and his position as the leader of that party.
Since when as any politician give two hoots of how they achieve things as long as they achieve
their own objectives?
Do you really think he has conducted the most vigorous and high profile campaign possible for a 'No' vote?
Forget your ideology this is politics - pure & simple.
You need to get in the real world.

 

[SWP's back]

Erm, isn't it all because "there are more giant pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs" because of the legacy from Thatcher. So float off Scotland from the UK and Westminster has a Conservative majority ?
Simples!

Oh my...
You have got it in one!
A stroke of genius by 'Call Me Dave'
He ain't as dumb as he looks...

And hugely ignoring the fact that Cameron desperately wants the union to remain.

I on the other hand would rather see happen what G Star states.

 

[metalblue]

I came across (no, not that way you dirty feckers ;)) this wee piece earlier on today. Just puts a slightly alternative view point on things. What if there was no union already in place? Would you vote for the below?

Some bullet points from the campaign…

-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf

-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.

-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.

-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.

-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn

-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.

-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)

-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy

-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service

-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.

-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.

-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.

-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.

-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.

-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.

-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.

Who in Scotland would vote for such a package?

Who would vote for that union?

There's so much wrong with that mate I don't know where to begin. You aren't net contributors to the economy Scotland receives more tax payers money than it pays albeit some is made up of project spend from Westminster, which helpfully creates employment in Scotland as well. Which brings me to my next point that yes Scottish tax payers will pay a share of government projects in England, Wales, and NI but the reverse is true, we all pay into projects in Scotland as well so it's a daft point.

Illegal wars? Like Blair? Wasn't Labour voted in in Scotland as the main party? Someone is trying to make out like your shit doesn't smell. Which leads on to the representation, you returned a large number of Labour MPs who were in power of UK at time... And complain about not being represented?

Ah privatisation of education and health that old chestnut, of course it was a Scot in the form of Brown who enacted so much PFI that we find ourselves paying 700% over the initial capital cost not to mention the odd story of insane maintenance costs.

ATOS? A bunch of cunts, again it was Brown who engaged these clowns.

My longwinded point is that politicians will always make shit decisions and talk out of their arse to feather their own nest with no conviction of the ilk we saw with Robin Cook or Tony Benn to name but two (regardless of your political compass). The above repost was weak by your standards if you don't mind me saying so mate. Your closing sentence in a previous post "The possibility of being better is better than the fear of being worse" I thought was quite a good one and tries to rise above the tribal nature of politics (that you yourself find unappealing) for what is a momentus decision for Scotland and the rest of the UK.

 

[BrianW]

The Tories have brought this situation about. There used to be loads of Tory MPs in Scotland (really!) but Margaret Hilda Thatcher figured out she didn't need Scottish votes to get a majority. (Nor votes from much of Wales and the North of England, but that's another matter.) So she pursued policies that went down well in Chingford and Chipping Sodbury, and fuck to what the Scots thought.

This is the harvest, and it's really ironic that the alleged 'Unionist' Party have brought us to the edge of a break up of the UK. It's what's born of following narrow, divisive policies that suit your own 'tribe' without consideration to the rest. Particularly silly when your 'tribe' never, at best, exceeds more than about 40% of the UK population, and often far less.

To say we are living in 'interesting times' is putting it mildly.

 

[TonyM]

Ireland, if a model for independence, is a disaster in some respects. It's the fault of awful politicians who have no ability to stand up to the EU. I think we are marginally better off than if we were still part of the uk. Longerm I think we'd have been 2nd class to England especially with regard to jobs but maybe it'd have kept us fighting politically (as apposed to just rolling over for the eu every single time).

I hope Scotland breaks away and if they are part of the eu that they show more backbone than we did.

On my side of the water I hope SF can shake things up. It's not nationalism anymore IMO - these days it's a fight just to be able to have your own opinion.

 

[the god Gerry Gow]

I've say it before and I'll say it again.

How is it independence if you are tied into a currency union but have no say over policy and if as soon as you leave one union you want to join another one, the EU.

I appreciate that Salmond doesn't have any original thoughts (well no more than call me dave anyway) and is really just Nicola Sturgeons mouthpiece but come on think it through a bit more

 

[ayrshire_blue]

The EU is a completely different union.

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

A yes vote is a coming.

Last week you could have had 7/1 on a yes vote, today it's down to 3/1 with a few weeks still to go. Blame the tories all you want but it will be labour (The main unionist party in Scotland) voters who will vote for independence in their droves. If you are left-wing it's a no brainer to vote yes.

 

[Ronnie the Rep]

Let's just get the damn thing over with and either you fuck off or we have to put up with your whining about not getting representation and then repeat until you do one

 

[ayrshire_blue]

Let's just get the damn thing over with and either you fuck off or we have to put up with your whining about not getting representation and then repeat until you do one

No bother mate. Isco signed yet?