Scottish independence

Of course the Scots can continue to use the UK pound. Just as the UK (if it wanted) could use the US dollar or the Pakistani rupee. There are, however, downsides to using another nation's currency, which are obvious to anyone who is not economically illiterate.

I suspect we shall have the worst of all worlds, a narrow victory for 'no' which will leave the large pro-independence minority whinging until they get another referendum in 10 or 20 years time. This will create an unstable and unhappy country.

On balance a clean break is better for everyone. In a few years the Scots will discover that nationalism does not turn a country into paradise, but at least they won't be able to blame the English any more. Ideally it will be an opportunity for the rest of the UK to re-invent itself, and maybe become a modern state with a proper constitution and stuff like that. We can get rid of the nukes while we're at it, as without those Scottish lochs there will be no suitable base, and we can create jobs by building our naval ships in England rather than at Rosyth.
 
The whole of the UK should have been asked to vote on whether the Scots should be allowed to vote for independence before hand. All this expenditure on 5 million jocks is disproportionate. Population of London is well in excess of that and they make do with just a mayor !
 
The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.
 
I agree that Scotland would be better off as an independent country, but without being able to control their own currency, it's not really independence. The bank of England will still be controlling interest rates and when it comes to lending on an international scale, Scotland will not have the financial muscle as an independent country.

Also, during the debates I watched recently, Alex Salmond waxed lyrical about how they would support the NHS and make changes to social housing, and it made me think that had Scotland never been a part of the UK, they wouldn't have the NHS or social housing to name but a few.

Interesting times ahead, tho.
 
pace89 said:
The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.
Click to expand...

You should send this in a wee letter to the BT campaign. Never read as much nonsensical patronising snide in all my life.
 
Just let em do it. If they pull it off good for them and we don't have them draining the NHS with their record levels of heart disease and alcoholism and other services as much and if it goes tits up we all get a laugh out of it.
 
Indeed interesting times. As much as I want them to remain in the UK, I kinda want them to leave and learn the hard way. When and if they split they will have to take their share of our massive national debt too that paid for their social, education and NHS services. Who owns the oil will be interesting and re entry to the EU will be entertaining if they don't meet the entry criteria. Their population is ageing quite fast so, who is going to pay into the pensions pot. I'd say to them forget the nationalist stance for a moment because the grass is not Scottish blossoming blue on the other side
 
ayrshire_blue said:
pace89 said:
The case for independence is simply flag waving nationalism dressed up as progressive politics. The problems that afflict the poverty stricken in Glasgow are more or less the same as those faced by people in Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, Cardiff etc. The challenges facing fishing communities in the west of Scotland are remarkably similar to those for equivalent communities in Cornwall and Devon. The ultimate argument of the nationalists is that there should be no formal political, economic or social relationship (other than currency union for the convenience of the Scottish government) with any other part of this island. It makes no logical sense whatsoever.

If the Scots want redistribution of wealth then they should be fighting for wealth to be redistributed from the richest part of the Union (London and the South East) to the poorest parts which including Scotland but also northern England, the Welsh Valleys and much of Northern Ireland.

The economic case for independence is nonsensical. Basically the entire tax and spend policy depends on massively optimistic returns on oil without any loss to the economy as a result of British public sector disappearing. The financial services industry is crucial to the Scottish economy but mainly because it’s a cheap way of serving a massive customer base is in England. How many people in England with assets managed by Scottish firms will want a foreign jurisdiction to oversee control of their wealth? Not many I would guess which means a massive disinvestment from the Scottish economy. Similarly there’s no way the Scottish Government could cover the liabilities of Scottish banks unless all their English customers move elsewhere. Or unless all the Scottish banks move elsewhere.

Scotland is a country that historically was divided by religion but is now equally divided by nationalism. The SNP government had the choice of pushing for Devo-max, which the vast majority support and would have united Scotland, but instead chose this process. Whatever the outcome it is going to be close and it is becoming increasingly bitter on each side by the day.

The SNP are no better than UKIP it’s just Westminster is the straw man in the independence debate where as its ‘Brussels’ and the EU Commission for people who want out of the EU. It’s depressing that more people can’t see this for the shoddy power grab that it is.
Click to expand...

You should send this in a wee letter to the BT campaign. Never read as much nonsensical patronising snide in all my life.
Click to expand...
It is certainly a tad inflammatory, and contains not only some vague generalisations, and a few pre emptive assumptions, but, in the main I think it's roughly accurate. What the more strident Nationalists (not yourself) have found bemusing, is the support they get for their cause south of Hadrians Wall.
 
I came across (no, not that way you dirty feckers ;)) this wee piece earlier on today. Just puts a slightly alternative view point on things. What if there was no union already in place? Would you vote for the below?

Some bullet points from the campaign…

-Your main Parliament will move 600 miles away, and your MPs will be in a tiny minority & will therefore have limited ability to effect policy on your behalf

-Scotland will get a government it didn’t vote for.

-All of your oil and gas revenues will be handed over to the treasury in London.

-Even though not 1 inch of track will touch Scottish soil your taxpayers will contribute £4.2bn to the HS2 project.

-Your taxpayers will also subsidise the crossrail project to the tune of £4.2bn

-The biggest nuclear weapons facility in Western Europe will be built on the river Clyde, just 30 miles from your largest city.

-Even though you only have 8.2% of the UK’s population you will contribute 9.9% of the UK’s total tax take yet will only receive 9.3% of that tax take back to spend in Scotland (you will lose £4.4bn per year to the UK treasury)

-You will devolve all of the economic levers you have used to shape your economy directly to London and will now only have control of 7% of your economy

-Even though 79% of your MP's voted against it we will privitise your publicly owned mail service

-Even though 91% of your MPs voted against the bedroom tax in your parliament, we will impose it.

-Even though 82% of your MP's believed that a VAT increase would be detrimental to your economy, we will impose a VAT increase.

-You will join a country whose health and education services are rapidly being privatised.

-Now and again you’ll get dragged into an illegal foreign war.

-An austerity budget will be imposed from London cutting jobs and threatening vital public services even though 81% of your MP's voted against the cuts.

-The financial regulation system will be so weak and so lax that your whole economy will be brought to the brink of collapse.

-The most weak and vulnerable in society, instead of getting the protection and support they deserve will be interrogated and humiliated in an effort to get them off the meagre levels of support to which they are entitled.

Who in Scotland would vote for such a package?

Who would vote for that union?
 
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