Scottish independence

[GazC]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but what happens if the mainland votes overwhelmingly yes, but the islands, Orkney and Shetland in particular, have an overwhelming no vote? Could this, realistically, spark a referendum for secession from Scotland back to the UK? Given much of an independent Scotland's tax revenue would come from oil & gas, where would this leave it?

 

[without a dream]

Nail on the head mate. Your last sentence pretty much sums it up. It's never going to be a decision taken without any risks. But the fact of the matter is it's neither going to be a utopia nor go completely tits up. I'm prepared to take the risk of being slightly worse off in the short term for the benefit to future generations in the longer term. I'm prepared to do it, but that still doesn't mean I think we will be any worse off at all.

"Papa why are we living in a country which has lots of rich people who keep getting richer and lots of poor people who keep getting poorer"

"Because I voted no 50 years ago".

Do you honestly think that mate? The vote will be too close to not change the landscape forever, if you vote no the next time the independence debate comes up is when/if we get the EU referendum. example; Scotland wants to stay in, England doesn't.

Scotland is ill prepared for it now but Salmond will be under no doubt the policy areas he needs concrete for his next stab at the debate if a no vote prevails.

I honestly think Scotland, and indeed you guys up north, will continue to become worse off in the result of a no vote. Westminster lie to us on a regular basis so I've no doubt they're continuing to do so at the moment.

I've heard a lot of those in the no camp who are of the same opinion as you mate. I.e. vote No just now with a view to a yes vote further down the line. I'm just in the way of thinking that if independence will eventually be gained then why not now?

Of course you could say there's unanswered questions, but there's always going to be unanswered questions in such an event until it actually happens. Questions which are impossible to answer at the moment as 100% fact. There's a difference between that and being ill prepared though.

What we do know is that while independence might not have some answers, Westminster certainly do and they're not looking good.

I think you're hugely ill prepared. I've not heard anything close to a definitive answer about any of the issues which will face an independent Scotland.

 

[Samosa]

Personally I hope a Yes vote comes through. I'm admittedly cynical on the matter but looking at the wider picture I see a better future in general. The dissolution of Britain is something I look forward to. The name and the flag no longer acting as a form of representation for the people of these isles in the eyes of the rest of the world. When Wales and Northern Ireland are ready, if ever they are, then they too should be given their sovereignty. Britain is a vulgar thing, independence for England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland is far better.

 

[Uptop]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but what happens if the mainland votes overwhelmingly yes, but the islands, Orkney and Shetland in particular, have an overwhelming no vote? Could this, realistically, spark a referendum for secession from Scotland back to the UK? Given much of an independent Scotland's tax revenue would come from oil & gas, where would this leave it?

I am from Orkney and have mates in Shetland and almost everyone I know personally is a no vote. We are the one of the few places in Scotland that heavily votes Lib Dem I think and SNP doesn't give a fuck about us. They literally give us nothing compared to the Western Isles and refuse to invest properly in renewable energy when we have one of the best locations on the entire planet to harness tidal energy, companies have already started moving to others location because of it.

I was thinking this exact thing. Salmond's main point of Independance is that Scotland is governed by a party we didn't vote for, yet we didn't vote for SNP up here and seem to be voting no for Independence, how is that any different?

 

[RandomJ]

I want a yes vote so I can watch it go tits up

How long will it be before a campaign starts to rejoin the union? I give it ten years :-).

Yep. Like the other 125 countries who have all gained independence in the last centuary or so. Always looking to rejoin the........erm...........infact....LOL

If Scotland vote yes does that mean our token Jockies will go back home to bonny?

Hope so ;-)

They may do so if they wish. Unlike you, and a small minority of English people though, if you ever fancy an extended visit up here you'll be welcomed with open arms.

They will use the GBP but have no control on interest rates or any lender of last resort so if things go tits up they are in serious trouble. I lot of them really have no idea just what they are voting for. It is turkey's voting for Christmas.
Salmond has done a great job of whipping them up into a nationalistic frenzy. However with Salmond it is all about ideology and ideologists do not not have any care or concern for the consequences that a 'Yes' vote will entail.
A country gets the government it deserves...

fat alex reminds me of a certain ally mcleod, were going to win the world cup etc. till the reality hit!

I keep hearing this "those who are voting yes don't know what they're voting for" "Turkey's voting for Christmas" carry on. The guardian has today released an article stating that a study which has been conducted has found that those better educated on the subject of the referendum tend to be voting YES.

As Barroso himself stated on Andy Marr's show, when pushed hard, it would be difficult for Scotland to rejoin the EU. However, he never said it would be impossible. Moreover, with a political perspective that is more in tune with other EU Members than say, England, I suspect Scotland would not be kept out of the fold for too long. As the centre of horse trading par excellence, Brussels would likely see deals cut to satisfy all parties.

I very much doubt that. Spain is and always has been, vehemently anti secessionist and it would take monumental bribes from Brussels to calm them down, something that they would probably feel is way too much trouble. In common with others on here, I cannot understand how the Jocks are thinking of taking such a monumental decision, when currency, EU membership, defence etc; questions have not been answered at all.
However, now that it looks like they'll be getting even more concessions if they vote no, I fervently hope the yes vote wins by a landslide.

Part of being in the European Union is stomaching unpalatable decisions, and Spain really isn't in the strongest position to oppose Scottish entry. At heart, the EU prefers to include rather than exclude, so Scotland would probably be more welcome than unwelcome. For Eurocrats, there would also be the added piquancy of having Scotland in the EU at a time when England is considering a position of self-isolation. On the matter of defence, I posted a link earlier which sets out potential scenarios, though I agree the immediate currency matter remains the most nettlesome. Perhaps the 'Jocks' simply want to determine their own destiny henceforth.

Nail on the head mate. Your last sentence pretty much sums it up. It's never going to be a decision taken without any risks. But the fact of the matter is it's neither going to be a utopia nor go completely tits up. I'm prepared to take the risk of being slightly worse off in the short term for the benefit to future generations in the longer term. I'm prepared to do it, but that still doesn't mean I think we will be any worse off at all.

"Papa why are we living in a country which has lots of rich people who keep getting richer and lots of poor people who keep getting poorer"

"Because I voted no 50 years ago".[/quote]

LOL yeah cos a yes vote will mean a utopia where wealth is evenly distributed and your children will be driven to school in solid gold cars wiping their mouths with crisp 50 quid notes. Yes or no the rich will continue to get richer and the poor will continue to get poorer. That's not London's doing that is just the way the world is.

 

[GazC]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but what happens if the mainland votes overwhelmingly yes, but the islands, Orkney and Shetland in particular, have an overwhelming no vote? Could this, realistically, spark a referendum for secession from Scotland back to the UK? Given much of an independent Scotland's tax revenue would come from oil & gas, where would this leave it?

I am from Orkney and have mates in Shetland and almost everyone I know personally is a no vote. We are the one of the few places in Scotland that heavily votes Lib Dem I think and SNP doesn't give a fuck about us. They literally give us nothing compared to the Western Isles and refuse to invest properly in renewable energy when we have one of the best locations on the entire planet to harness tidal energy, companies have already started moving to others location because of it.

I was thinking this exact thing. Salmond's main point of Independance is that Scotland is governed by a party we didn't vote for, yet we didn't vote for SNP up here and seem to be voting no for Independence, how is that any different?

Thanks - I was searching for newspaper articles covering this as I remember it was a major point of contention prior to March where it was given a lot of column space in both the Guardian and Independent. Since then; nothing, albeit in the little amount of time I've spent searching, it's amazing how this issue seems to have been completely glossed over by the press on both sides of the argument and the ramifications it could have on an independent Scotland.

 

[Uptop]

I'm sure this has been asked and answered already, but what happens if the mainland votes overwhelmingly yes, but the islands, Orkney and Shetland in particular, have an overwhelming no vote? Could this, realistically, spark a referendum for secession from Scotland back to the UK? Given much of an independent Scotland's tax revenue would come from oil & gas, where would this leave it?

I am from Orkney and have mates in Shetland and almost everyone I know personally is a no vote. We are the one of the few places in Scotland that heavily votes Lib Dem I think and SNP doesn't give a fuck about us. They literally give us nothing compared to the Western Isles and refuse to invest properly in renewable energy when we have one of the best locations on the entire planet to harness tidal energy, companies have already started moving to others location because of it.

I was thinking this exact thing. Salmond's main point of Independance is that Scotland is governed by a party we didn't vote for, yet we didn't vote for SNP up here and seem to be voting no for Independence, how is that any different?

Thanks - I was searching for newspaper articles covering this as I remember it was a major point of contention prior to March where it was given a lot of column space in both the Guardian and Independent. Since then; nothing, albeit in the little amount of time I've spent searching, it's amazing how this issue seems to have been completely glossed over by the press on both sides of the argument and the ramifications it could have on an independent Scotland.

There was even talk of if Scotland went Independent Orkney and Shetland go back to Denmark and Norway if they pay a dowry which would be about 1.5Billion nowadays. I did a quick serach and this is what I found, maybe its all bullshit. <a class="postlink" href="http://ahdinnaeken.wordpress.com/2012/08/11/independent-scotland-will-lose-orkney-and-shetland/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://ahdinnaeken.wordpress.com/2012/0 ... -shetland/</a>. Don't think anyone really would want to do that though.

 

[The Flash]

Ohhhhhh weeeeee'll drink a drink a drink,
To Salmond the fink the fink the fink,
Betrayer of the Scottish ra-a-ace,
Because he sold them, the 'Yes Vote' compound,
Now they're learning how to cry.

 

[ayrshire_blue]

The difference being Bob that Shetland/Orkney are not countries where as Scotland is!

Independence from Scotland for Shetland/Orkney is as likely as independence from Scotland in Ayrshire/Edinburgh/etc etc. There's absolutely no mandate for it.

I didn't vote for SNP either but it's not about having a government for every individual town, city, island or person. It's about a seperate country not making our decisions for us!

It's about learning to stand on our own two feet and doing what we feel's best for our own country.

I was on holiday recently and people from Canada were speaking to me about the referendum. They are absolutely astonished to the point that they can not believe that we even have to make this decision and it's not a unanimous yes vote.

On Shetland/Orkney if and when Scotland gets control over it's own oil revenues expect that to be fed back into the community at an agreed amount and not what's currently forced on us from London.

 

[George Hannah]

Dear Scotland,

Here are 76 things we'd like to apologise for,

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/feb/19/scottish-independence-76-things-apologise" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -apologise</a>

love England

and from the Financial Times' Martin Wolf

What England and Scotland have made is "the world's most successful multinational state" (this from a dry writer, not given to hyperbole) whose sum is greater than its component parts and whose shared contribution to the world has been immense. English or Scots is an ethnic identity, but "British a civic one … If Scotland were to depart, I would lose an important part of myself".

 

[SWP's back]

I wish they would hurry up and fuck off.

All this talk of a socialist utopia where there is perfectly even wealth distribution is as entertaining as it is naive.

 

[ayrshire_blue]

I wish they would hurry up and fuck off.

All this talk of a socialist utopia where there is perfectly even wealth distribution is as entertaining as it is naive.

That's all well and good. But it's only you and Alistair Darling who's mentioning a socialist utopia.

Now who's being naive?

 

[SWP's back]

"Papa why are we living in a country which has lots of rich people who keep getting richer and lots of poor people who keep getting poorer"

"Because I voted no 50 years ago".

 

[Wilf Wild 1937]

The difference being that Shetland/Orkney are not countries where as Scotland is!

This sounds dangerously similar to the Argentinian claim for the Falklands.

Ethnically the people of those islands are different to those on mainland Scotland given their Norse past.

You quite rightly want the right to self determination so why shouldn't they be given the same?

 

[GazC]

The difference being Bob that Shetland/Orkney are not countries where as Scotland is!

Independence from Scotland for Shetland/Orkney is as likely as independence from Scotland in Ayrshire/Edinburgh/etc etc. There's absolutely no mandate for it.

I didn't vote for SNP either but it's not about having a government for every individual town, city, island or person. It's about a seperate country not making our decisions for us!

It's about learning to stand on our own two feet and doing what we feel's best for our own country.

I was on holiday recently and people from Canada were speaking to me about the referendum. They are absolutely astonished to the point that they can not believe that we even have to make this decision and it's not a unanimous yes vote.

On Shetland/Orkney if and when Scotland gets control over it's own oil revenues expect that to be fed back into the community at an agreed amount and not what's currently forced on us from London.

That's all well and good; but what if those on the northern islands feel the same about the SNP as the SNP feels about Westminster? What happens if they appeal to the EU for special self determination in the same way Catalonia or Venice have before Scotland even apply, never mind complete the process, for membership? It's a huge 'what-if' and, given the way the vote looks to be going in that part of the country, needs to be given appropriate attention before you hit the ballots - Scotland have been sold an idea of nationalism and independence on a wing and a prayer, you can't build a business on that, never-mind a nation.

As it stands at the moment, you will have no currency of your own, no currency union, no hope of joining the EU, no immigration policy and no firm control over an area that will be bringing in >10% of your tax revenue. I'm all for Scottish independence from London, and would like to think the north would join suite, however you deserve much better than false promises that have no hope of being kept, anyone of which that didn't come to fruition could see the entire house of cards falling down.

 

[Uptop]

The difference being Bob that Shetland/Orkney are not countries where as Scotland is!

Independence from Scotland for Shetland/Orkney is as likely as independence from Scotland in Ayrshire/Edinburgh/etc etc. There's absolutely no mandate for it.

I didn't vote for SNP either but it's not about having a government for every individual town, city, island or person. It's about a seperate country not making our decisions for us!

It's about learning to stand on our own two feet and doing what we feel's best for our own country.

I was on holiday recently and people from Canada were speaking to me about the referendum. They are absolutely astonished to the point that they can not believe that we even have to make this decision and it's not a unanimous yes vote.

On Shetland/Orkney if and when Scotland gets control over it's own oil revenues expect that to be fed back into the community at an agreed amount and not what's currently forced on us from London.

I guess but Orkney and Shetland are different from the rest of Scotland, our cultural roots are not in Scotland but Scandinavia. Just looking at the place names they are all Nordic, Gaelic doesn't exist here. So I guess I'm just saying there is a point of view that we could be separated as we weren't always part of Scotland and could be argued we are distinctly different, even though I am proud to be Scottish and wouldn't want to do that. Devils advocate and all that.

I can see positives and negatives on both sides, I think we will be fine if we go Independant but I just feel in the long term we are better of part of the UK. I don't trust a new government to look out for the best interest of the whole country, I believe it would be the same as it is now, but instead of Westminster it would be Edinburgh. I have already seen the SNP ignore my Islands and if we become independent I see no reason they won't continue to ignore us.

 

[ayrshire_blue]

Perfectly reasonable Bob. I guess at the end of the day we all want the same thing - what's best for ourselves, our families and our local communities. I see that being an independent Scotland, some don't.

If nothing else, the campaign has got the whole country talking about Politics and hopefully some people who don't normally pay any attention start to do so and would feel more inclined to vote in any sort of election in the future.

I'm not saying anything else on this thread (for now) because I feel like I'm repeating myself at times - and probably most of you do too!

SWP's back - there was a thread on this very forum around 2011 with 'favourite posters on here'. You were on my list...I'd be very very careful if I were you or you may just lose your place mate ;)

Seriously - good luck to everyone. I hope whichever way the decision goes on the day that it benefits you in the way which you'd hoped.

 

[Ban-jani]

I wish they would hurry up and fuck off.

All this talk of a socialist utopia where there is perfectly even wealth distribution is as entertaining as it is naive.

Good luck to them if they do.

Nothing naive about it either.

 

[Ell-ano]

I've just moved up to Aberdeen from Manchester, and in time to get a vote, its an interesting debate to observe, for me Salmond and the Yes campaign haven't given enough concrete answers on the big questions: currency, Europe etc. but i do hate Cameron and the Tories just as much as any Yes campaigner and i feel that Miliband and Labour have become too similar to the Conservatives and in reality they are the only two parties that will be elected.

 

[Gabriel]

The difference being Bob that Shetland/Orkney are not countries where as Scotland is!

Independence from Scotland for Shetland/Orkney is as likely as independence from Scotland in Ayrshire/Edinburgh/etc etc. There's absolutely no mandate for it.

I didn't vote for SNP either but it's not about having a government for every individual town, city, island or person. It's about a seperate country not making our decisions for us!

It's about learning to stand on our own two feet and doing what we feel's best for our own country.

I was on holiday recently and people from Canada were speaking to me about the referendum. They are absolutely astonished to the point that they can not believe that we even have to make this decision and it's not a unanimous yes vote.

On Shetland/Orkney if and when Scotland gets control over it's own oil revenues expect that to be fed back into the community at an agreed amount and not what's currently forced on us from London.

I guess but Orkney and Shetland are different from the rest of Scotland, our cultural roots are not in Scotland but Scandinavia. Just looking at the place names they are all Nordic, Gaelic doesn't exist here. So I guess I'm just saying there is a point of view that we could be separated as we weren't always part of Scotland and could be argued we are distinctly different, even though I am proud to be Scottish and wouldn't want to do that. Devils advocate and all that.

I can see positives and negatives on both sides, I think we will be fine if we go Independant but I just feel in the long term we are better of part of the UK. I don't trust a new government to look out for the best interest of the whole country, I believe it would be the same as it is now, but instead of Westminster it would be Edinburgh. I have already seen the SNP ignore my Islands and if we become independent I see no reason they won't continue to ignore us.

I genuinely don't fear such repetition. For one thing, Glasgow would demand greater input, while the reliance on energy (renewable and non-) would see the islands and Aberdeen generate greater power- forgive the pun.

As for the SNP, I would imagine the political landscape after a 'Yes' vote would change dramatically, with politicians and parties realigning themselves accordingly.