Shamima Begum

Dave Ewing's Back 'eader said:
She can be tried 'in absentia' - stateless or not! That must be an option!
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No she can’t. If she absconded from bail and couldn’t be found she could be tried in absentia. If nobody knew where she was she could be tried in absentia. You can’t deny somebody the right to return to face trial and then try them in absentia
 
LGWIO said:
Its funny that I dont actually think the nationality/passport thing is much of an issue.
It is within the power of our governement to remove someones nationality (if it is acquired rather than through birth prior to 1/1/81) with her automatically holding BGD nationality through her parents.
So the whole bringing her back for the appeal (IMHO) is a moot point.

For me the whole issue is of morals and duty. Should we just abondon some, or many people who have suffered or are suffering? Should we as a "civilised" and developed/rich(er) country not reach out and help others not matter what they may have done in the past?

But then where do we draw the line? The camps in Turkey/Syria? Iraq? The Rohingyas? The "caravans" travelling up through central America? How many do we or should we help?

The only people who will be doign well out of this situation will be the media and the lawyers of course.
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Who’d have thought it?

A Liverpool fan who doesn’t want someone to face trial for their criminal actions.
 
mackenzie said:
I wonder what the returning WW2 soldiers would have thought of all this.
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Given that the UK post war elected the Labour Govt, that the British people accepted not only the likes of Polish, Czech and French nationals who chose to stay here after hostilities ceased they also were sanguine about Italian and German POW's who ( unlike Begum ) had fought against us and were captured on the battlefield whilst engaged in armed opposition but wanted to stay here and were welcomed my guess is they would be bewildered why we have such a right wing government that is so anti Europe them having spent 6 years liberating it and why a British citizen - a young woman - was stripped of her citizen ship and rights to a fair trial by the Government in question.
Particularly when we tried and hanged William Joyce for treason insisting he was a British citizen when he lied to obtain a British passport.
 
Fode N The Hole said:
inews.co.uk

Ampleforth College banned from admitting new pupils over safeguarding failings

The Education Secretary Gavin Williamson has ordered the school to 'cease to admit any new students'
inews.co.uk inews.co.uk

She claims that she was raped according to this article, there is a difference between factual and legal consent.

Do you read arabic and have access to the Syrian criminal code or have translations available? What about the issue of marital rape, I'm sure the rule in Islamic state was that wives were not able to withdraw consent to sex when in marriage.

Do you think it is ironic we are now showing defference to the laws of Syria and it's justice system when I don't think there is anyone on this forum who would argue it wasn't a corrupt and brutal regime?
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I was just pointing out that the age of consent in Syria was 15 and that she was not under age, as the other poster had stated. The accusation of rape can never be proven.

My own personal opinion of the whole matter is that I find it troublesome. She was a 15 year old girl and we are writing her whole life off due to actions she took at that age. Up until 21 I was very immature and if society had taken the same principals with me, then I would have ended up on the scrapheap.
As of yet, I am not sure what from a legal stand point, she has actually done wrong. Until the evidence is presented I do not have enough knowledge on the episode to have a valid opinion.

From the interviews of her I have seen, her views are morally repugnant and her lack of remorse and contrition is absolutely disgusting. Her comments regarding the Manchester bombing have rightly pissed people off and I understand the outrage from people.

It seems an extremely complicated case. It is difficult for any of us to have an informed view, hence why I find the whole episode troublesome and why at this point I am sat on the fence regarding what I believe should happen.
 
Nightmare Walking said:
I was just pointing out that the age of consent in Syria was 15 and that she was not under age, as the other poster had stated. The accusation of rape can never be proven.

My own personal opinion of the whole matter is that I find it troublesome. She was a 15 year old girl and we are writing her whole life off due to actions she took at that age. Up until 21 I was very immature and if society had taken the same principals with me, then I would have ended up on the scrapheap.
As of yet, I am not sure what from a legal stand point, she has actually done wrong. Until the evidence is presented I do not have enough knowledge on the episode to have a valid opinion.

From the interviews of her I have seen, her views are morally repugnant and her lack of remorse and contrition is absolutely disgusting. Her comments regarding the Manchester bombing have rightly pissed people off and I understand the outrage from people.

It seems an extremely complicated case. It is difficult for any of us to have an informed view, hence why I find the whole episode troublesome and why at this point I am sat on the fence regarding what I believe should happen.
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Fair enough, that's a balanced view. Nobody would defend some of ger reported views although from what I could tell most of what she said was only after prompting from the press. From reading that article the comments about the heads in bins seems to reflect a mind radicalised by propaganda- claims that they would victimise Muslim women. But then if that is the case why was she taken captive and not subject to this?

We also can't discount that she may have been rationalising her abhorrent views about terrorist events under duress of circumstances i. e. there may be loyalist elements in the camps who would dole out punishments for things like apologising. I linked an article about beheadings in one camp, and her lawyer told the court she would be at risk of physical harm from people in the camp if she spoke by mobile phone to her British lawyers.
 
bumbleblue said:
What happened to the other two girls she originally left with?
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Dead, killed by American air strike. I'm surprised the handwringers haven't
gone after the Yanks, screaming about imperialists and warmongers, and
posted more diatribes about socialist philosophy, but it's still early days.
Apparently though, one of them may be alive, she was happily wed to one of these jolly Jihadis, an Aussie, so must have been Ok with the rapey side of things. He was also sadly slotted, another dreadful murderous act that we need to be ashamed of, but she loves the life over there and decided to stay.
 
bluethrunthru said:
Given that the UK post war elected the Labour Govt, that the British people accepted not only the likes of Polish, Czech and French nationals who chose to stay here after hostilities ceased they also were sanguine about Italian and German POW's who ( unlike Begum ) had fought against us and were captured on the battlefield whilst engaged in armed opposition but wanted to stay here and were welcomed my guess is they would be bewildered why we have such a right wing government that is so anti Europe them having spent 6 years liberating it and why a British citizen - a young woman - was stripped of her citizen ship and rights to a fair trial by the Government in question.
Particularly when we tried and hanged William Joyce for treason insisting he was a British citizen when he lied to obtain a British passport.
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Well seeing that your views of the British public have been laced with calling
them every name under the sun for never adopting your views, I think you'd find that they'd view your view of this situation with the same disdain.
 
Vic said:
What's the evidence that they could challenge? The assessment is "She might do this." The only evidence against is "No she wouldn't". The SC said as much. The state says she is a security risk, and because the state says she is a security risk, she can't come to the UK to give evidence that might prove she isn't.

I understand the lack of sympathy, but worry that people can't see that it's an unfortunate precedent. I guess some people actually cheer the hostile environment and policies that led to the Windrush scandal, and some wouldn't want any war refugee here, let alone one with her background (whether "victim" or "perpetrator").
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Emotives like your last paragraph are wrong because she is not a war refugee, she is not part of the windrush generation and she is not some innocent who has been mistreated. She chose to goto Syria to marry an ISIS terrorist, ISIS were subsequently defeated and now she remains detained by Kurdish forces essentially as an enemy combatant whilst her husband is in a Kurd prison.

Had ISIS not been defeated in Syria then he and she would still be out there cutting peoples heads off and expressing an ideology that is completely inhuman. She's pretty lucky to be alive given her other mates were all killed. However, now she wants to come home to plead for her human rights, be imprisoned at the taxpayers expense and rejoin the society she rejected because it was all a big mistake? Do me a favour.

I completely understand and accept any argument that she was too young at the time etc but she has an army of lawyers at her disposal to argue that case. It's unfortunate for her but that is a consequence not of her treatment but of her really poor choices.

I don't think it sets any precedent other than to say the consequences of joining a death cult and waging war against your country should be appropriately severe.
 
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ISIS was the working definition of "Queen's enemy without the realm". Any British citizen who adhered to them was, IMHO, guilty of high treason. Just like Lord Haw-Haw was. The age of criminal responsibility is 10 years old.

What amazes me is that many of these ISIS fans have been allowed to come home without consequences. They should all have been banged up, simply for their adherence.

Mind you, I am Left, not liberal. I don't see how it is in the interests of the people to tolerate murderous outfits like ISIS, which made Adolf or Joe Stalin seem relatively humane by comparison.
 
Fode N The Hole said:
Fair enough, that's a balanced view. Nobody would defend some of ger reported views although from what I could tell most of what she said was only after prompting from the press. From reading that article the comments about the heads in bins seems to reflect a mind radicalised by propaganda- claims that they would victimise Muslim women. But then if that is the case why was she taken captive and not subject to this?

We also can't discount that she may have been rationalising her abhorrent views about terrorist events under duress of circumstances i. e. there may be loyalist elements in the camps who would dole out punishments for things like apologising. I linked an article about beheadings in one camp, and her lawyer told the court she would be at risk of physical harm from people in the camp if she spoke by mobile phone to her British lawyers.
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She's been moved to a different camp because other ISIS women think she's a traitor, and she was at risk. Don't forget trying to leave ISIS was deserving of death in the caliphate, so what she says to anyone might be tailored to where she is, or where she wants to be.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
Probably significantly less than 1% of the population think she should be allowed back in the UK. Thats all you need to know about her requests. Her case shouldnt even be promoted by the media as front page news as it isnt.
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Scotland Yard terrorist analysts and experts aren’t part of that >1% neither. They agree with the court ruling.
 
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