The Labour Government

[mosssideblue]

I explained it in my post.

They are thugs. That’s all he had to say.

In your naive opinion

 

[metalblue]

In your naive opinion

Hahaha. Ok fella let’s leave it there.

 

[Brewster's millions]

I wouldn’t call it nothing of the sort when you have gone on about them being discriminated against.
By the way, the government doesn’t hand out punishments. That would be the courts, and as for being the entity that decides on restrictions at football matches, I would say the owner of the private property where they might want to go should make that decision. Ever heard of the “Kick it out” campaign? Why would any club want to invite back convicted racist thugs when they’ve spent the last 30 years running a campaign to get rid of them.

I haven’t defended the rights of these people to attend city games; my issue is how such bans could be enforced and implemented when clubs would effectively be banning people based on them having certain convictions, whilst at the same time not treating people with those same convictions equally. I think you’re very wrong to insinuate that I’m a racist for raising such doubts, which is what you and other posters did yesterday.

Whilst we’re on the matter I would think there are also practical questions about how the club could identify these people and ban them, if an actual banning order is not imposed by the courts. We don’t want these people in the ground, but short of conducting a criminal records check on people applying for tickets, how would the club identify them?

Would it not be better for the government to just change the law so that the courts would automatically apply football banning orders once people are convicted of certain offences, such as racially-motivated violence or assaulting police officers? Seems like a much more effective and straightforward approach to me.

 

[BobKowalski]

I explained it in my post.

They are thugs. That’s all he had to say.

The media and political promotors of the white race riots had several objectives. To intimidate, terrorise and destabilise. The new Govt being a priority target.

Immigration is the vehicle for mobilising a radicalised and racist section of the community hence the targeting of minorities, mosques etc. Where it went wrong from the far right perspective is that it sucked in the opportunistic who are happy for a spot of mayhem and thieving. You could see the narrative start to shift in the Tory press when it became more about civil disorder and the harming of communities that the radicalised right were ‘trying to protect’. Even now they are still reluctant to let go of their favoured narrative of ‘legitimate concern’ as if the burning of libraries or looting of shops is the consequence of not mentioning immigration. It’s nonsense because we never stop talking about immigration - we even deliberately hobbled our economy because of our obsession with immigration.

This isn’t about ‘thugs’. This is a coordinated attack on the country, its people and the elected Government and it is stoked by fascists who own social media platforms, our media and members of Parliament. Starmer has to address and combat these issues. The Govt will also have to rebuild the police force because this will not be the last of the disorder.

So, no. Simply saying these people are thugs will not suffice.

 

[metalblue]

The media and political promotors of the white race riots had several objectives. To intimidate, terrorise and destabilise. The new Govt being a priority target.

Immigration is the vehicle for mobilising a radicalised and racist section of the community hence the targeting of minorities, mosques etc. Where it went wrong from the far right perspective is that it sucked in the opportunistic who are happy for a spot of mayhem and thieving. You could see the narrative start to shift in the Tory press when it became more about civil disorder and the harming of communities that the radicalised right were ‘trying to protect’. Even now they are still reluctant to let go of their favoured narrative of ‘legitimate concern’ as if the burning of libraries or looting of shops is the consequence of not mentioning immigration. It’s nonsense because we never stop talking about immigration - we even deliberately hobbled our economy because of our obsession with immigration.

This isn’t about ‘thugs’. This is a coordinated attack on the country, its people and the elected Government and it is stoked by fascists who own social media platforms, our media and members of Parliament. Starmer has to address and combat these issues. The Govt will also have to rebuild the police force because this will not be the last of the disorder.

So, no. Simply saying these people are thugs will not suffice.

Appreciate the considered response. We won’t agree on the specifics of the language used by Starmer but I don’t disagree with the general points you make.

Hopefully today will be calmer.

 

[BrianW]

I haven’t defended the rights of these people to attend city games; my issue is how such bans could be enforced and implemented when clubs would effectively be banning people based on them having certain convictions, whilst at the same time not treating people with those same convictions equally.

How is any court order enforced?

If you are banned from driving, for example, there is nothing physical to stop you from driving. You can still get behind the wheel and drive, but if you're caught there are consequences.

As for discrimination, not everyone found guilty of a motoring offence is banned from driving. I see no essential difference.

If it were my decision, the very least these people would be worrying about would be the possibility of being banned from football. I regard that as a slap on the wrist.

In these days, when you can't just walk up and pay on the gate, it's relatively easy to exclude individuals. At least for big clubs, I suppose they might still get in at Prestwich Heys or FCUM.

 

[west didsblue]

He must stand above all of these grievance, take no side, but instead he has thrown himself in as being against the rioters, effectively saying your concerns have no justification.

Can you clarify what concerns the bloke who nicked a tray of pasties from Greggs has? Or the one who set Shoe Zone on fire? If you can answer that what is wrong with saying those concerns have no justification?

 

[metalblue]

Can you clarify what concerns the bloke who nicked a tray of pasties from Greggs has? Or the one who set Shoe Zone on fire? If you can answer that what is wrong with saying those concerns have no justification?

You’ve highlighted that not everyone out being a **** was there for far right wing reasons.

 

[Brewster's millions]

How is any court order enforced?

If you are banned from driving, for example, there is nothing physical to stop you from driving. You can still get behind the wheel and drive, but if you're caught there are consequences.

As for discrimination, not everyone found guilty of a motoring offence is banned from driving. I see no essential difference.

If it were my decision, the very least these people would be worrying about would be the possibility of being banned from football. I regard that as a slap on the wrist.

In these days, when you can't just walk up and pay on the gate, it's relatively easy to exclude individuals. At least for big clubs, I suppose they might still get in at Prestwich Heys or FCUM.

I appreciate that any banning order is difficult to enforce, but in terms of the actual mechanics of this, I would imagine it is much easier for the club to deal with this if a banning order has actually been imposed by the courts. The people in question will be identified for a kick off, something which I don’t think is a given in the absence of a court order, as the government can’t simply go around disclosing details of criminal convictions to anybody who wants them.

Not sure I agree with your driving licence analogy to be honest, as there is at least a legal framework around driving offences, even if it’s not especially rigid.

I do agree however with your sentiments with regard to all of this being a slap on the wrist. If the threat of clubs banning people involved in the riots is meant to be a a deterrent then I don’t see it working to be frank, not least because the issue of a ban only becomes relevant if people are out on the streets rather than being in jail.

 

[west didsblue]

You’ve highlighted that not everyone out being a **** was there for far right wing reasons.

Fine, we’ll stick to people trying to set fire to hotels where anyone could be staying but that they think might be housing asylum seekers and people randomly attacking black British people. I’m not quite sure why calling these people out for their criminal actions is equivalent to denying any legitimate concerns they may have. The reality is that their legitimate concerns (which probably don’t exist) are nothing to do with their criminal actions.

 

[BrianW]

Manchester City FC can ban anyone they like from their premises. They don't have to have a reason as long as they're not banning people for race, ethnicity, religion, sexuality, etc., which is illegal.

Of course, there are no consequences for flouting such a ban, other than maybe being chucked out if discovered. Although I suppose in theory they could sue for trespass, but usually this costs more than it is worth.

A court order, of course, is another level again. Then you are literally committing a crime if you flout it.

 

[inbetween]

You’ve highlighted that not everyone out being a **** was there for far right wing reasons.

There is a legitimate debate to have over immigration but that should be done calmly and sensibly. Protest on this should be allowed providing it remains peaceful but when the violence begins that right has to be removed regardless of reason to be there.

There will be a few out there protesting peacefully but let's not pretend that Nigel Farage and the Tommy Robinsons of this world aren't absolutely loving what happened yesterday. Certainly Farage isn't quite on the far right like Robinson is but he is attracting everybody to the issue. I mean they are the ones who instigated these riots through their rhetoric and they haven't exactly apologised so...

My fear is that immigration is about to become the next Brexit issue which we'll obsess over for years and it'll come to yet again deeply divide the country. This is funny though because Brexit was supposed to be the answer to that question and look how it has turned out, net migration has trebled since Brexit.

 

[metalblue]

There is a legitimate debate to have over immigration but that should be done calmly and sensibly. Protest on this should be allowed providing it remains peaceful but when the violence begins that right has to be removed regardless of reason to be there.

There will be a few out there protesting peacefully but let's not pretend that Nigel Farage and the Tommy Robinsons of this world aren't absolutely loving what happened yesterday. Certainly Farage isn't quite on the far right like Robinson is but he is attracting everybody to the issue. I mean they are the ones who instigated these riots through their rhetoric and they haven't exactly apologised so...

My fear is that immigration is about to become the next Brexit issue which we'll obsess over for years and it'll come to yet again deeply divide the country. This is funny though because Brexit was supposed to be the answer to that question and look how it has turned out, net migration has trebled since Brexit.

I think I saw a comment from Farage that could be taken either way. He may or may not agree with what is happening but he’s not going to alienate what are his core voters.

He’s called for parliament to be recalled undoubtedly so he can stir the immigration pot some.

 

[inbetween]

I think I saw a comment from Farage that could be taken either way. He may or may not agree with what is happening but he’s not going to alienate what are his core voters.

He’s called for parliament to be recalled undoubtedly so he can stir the immigration pot some.

He has to take some responsibility though because there's a real threat that somebody could go too far. You only have to look at Jo Cox or the other killings that have happened over the years.

It obviously doesn't mean that people can't protest but we can't pretend that anybody attending these protests/riots was doing so in solidarity with the families of the children killed in Southport.

It has already been proven that the person who did that wasn't a Muslim and wasn't an immigrant so their reason to get out there was pointless but they went out and rioted anyway.

 

[west didsblue]

There will be a few out there protesting peacefully but let's not pretend that Nigel Farage and the Tommy Robinsons of this world aren't absolutely loving what happened yesterday. Certainly Farage isn't quite on the far right like Robinson is but he is attracting everybody to the issue. I mean they are the ones who instigated these riots through their rhetoric and they haven't exactly apologised so...

My fear is that immigration is about to become the next Brexit issue which we'll obsess over for years and it'll come to yet again deeply divide the country. This is funny though because Brexit was supposed to be the answer to that question and look how it has turned out, net migration has trebled since Brexit.

Farage is in exactly the same place as Robinson politically. He just wears a suit and tries to sound like he’s “just asking questions”. But don’t kid yourself that their ideologies are in any way different. Farage is just more insidious.

 

[Coatigan]

He must stand above all of these grievance, take no side, but instead he has thrown himself in as being against the rioters, effectively saying your concerns have no justification.

Good! Way too late, but about time it started.

There is only one wrong side here. It Has no justification. It needs singled out.

Everyone should be against it, or be helped in coming to that realisation.

 

[Zabbasbeard]

Heard the account of a Muslim boy is not going to football practice tonight because his Dad doesn't feel he can be safe going out.

The governments of the United Arab Emirates, Malaysia and Nigeria have issued travel warnings for people travelling to Britain.

Overseas students are already phoning up Universities and cancelling their applications to study here.

This is the Britain of Farage, Anderson, Tyne, Yaxley-Lennon, and media outlets like The Daily Mail. They are responsible for this as they incited it. The sooner that these people are behind bars, the better.

 

[Streetsweeper]

Farage is in exactly the same place as Robinson politically. He just wears a suit and tries to sound like he’s “just asking questions”. But don’t kid yourself that their ideologies are in any way different. Farage is just more insidious.

‘Top dog fascist gets the boys in the corner
Plants poison where there was just confusion
Walks away Scot-free and laughing
Rides on the tide as the cancer grows’

New Model Army had some of these wankers nailed 40 years ago.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Farage is in exactly the same place as Robinson politically. He just wears a suit and tries to sound like he’s “just asking questions”. But don’t kid yourself that their ideologies are in any way different. Farage is just more insidious.

The farage system…….
First describe how Muslims won’t integrate and don’t share ‘british values’
Second instigate anti Muslim violence with half truths, insinuations and lies.(see above)
Third, watch it kick off and tell us all how right he was.(see above)
Classic example of the self-fulfilling prophecy.
Told us it would happen then made damn sure it did.

 

[Mr Kobayashi]

Heard the account of a Muslim boy is not going to football practice tonight because his Dad doesn't feel he can be safe going out.

The governments of the United Arab Emirates, Malaysia and Nigeria have issued travel warnings for people travelling to Britain.

Overseas students are already phoning up Universities and cancelling their applications to study here.

This is the Britain of Farage, Anderson, Tyne, Yaxley-Lennon, and media outlets like The Daily Mail. They are responsible for this as they incited it. The sooner that these people are behind bars, the better.

This needs to be nipped in the bud as soon as possible. It's time for the authorities to infiltrate and break up all elements of the far right.

We need to implement our own version of cointel pro against the far right.

The pandering to these thugs and their "legitimate concerns" and othering groups of people like Bangladeshis needs to stop.