The Labour Government

Churchlawtonblue said:
You're sounding hysterical. Perhaps you need to read this paper. Then you might understand where the money spent has come from and how it is very unikley to have any impact on there being more police on the beat in your area.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/investigation-costs-ukrwanda-partnership.pdf
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Thanks for that.
So in summary £290m so far has actually gone to Rwanda. The Home Office has spent around a further £20m in admin costs in setting up the scheme.
Not included is are the costs associated with not dealing with asylum claims i.e. accommodation for refugees etc which is millions each week, so I suspect it’s not unreasonable to assume that over half a billion pounds has been wasted over and above what it would have cost to set up a proper scheme to deal with asylum cases quickly and efficiently.
Can’t see anything in there that says specifically where that money has come from and why it couldn’t have been reallocated on spending on the police if the will was there.
 
mackenzie said:
I'm one of the floating voters, and have been for the last 40 years. Voted for each of the main 3 parties in that time.
I vote according to what is best for the country, rather than myself.

Got to admit that I've felt much better over the last few days. It's almost as if the whole psychodrama shambles of the last few years have gone. Whether that continues or not remains to be seen, but it feels good at the moment.

Thought Blunketts interview was interesting, especially the advice he gave to the Tory party
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To me it feels like when i moved back to the coast , where i belong , after living inland for a couple of years , taking a deep breath and not smelling crap and lies in the air , it might not last, i am not naive , but i feel relieved right now and calm about the future
 
Mr Kobayashi said:
ID cards are pointless without tough enforcement regimes.

The areas where people are working illegally or being exploited are already difficult for people to enforce.

Take this example. A Brazilian working on deliveroo on other people's accounts despite being banned by the platform.

www.bbc.co.uk

Aldershot: Thumb-bite Deliveroo rider given suspended sentence

Jeniffer Rocha attacked a customer in an argument over a pizza delivery in 2022.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
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My solution for delivery companies - I would make them vicariously liable for any damage or injury caused by their 'riders' irrespective of the employment status of the rider. This would make them a lot keener to employ reliable staff and not fuckwits who ride down crowded pavements in the centre of Manchester - as I saw only yesterday.
 
west didsblue said:
Thanks for that.
So in summary £290m so far has actually gone to Rwanda. The Home Office has spent around a further £20m in admin costs in setting up the scheme.
Not included is are the costs associated with not dealing with asylum claims i.e. accommodation for refugees etc which is millions each week, so I suspect it’s not unreasonable to assume that over half a billion pounds has been wasted over and above what it would have cost to set up a proper scheme to deal with asylum cases quickly and efficiently.
Can’t see anything in there that says specifically where that money has come from and why it couldn’t have been reallocated on spending on the police if the will was there.
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Its a different budget I believe. They intend to use ODA monies given to Rwanda under a different name. But are already under scrutiny for using this to house asylum seekers in the UK, which legally they can only do for the first year. The whole thing is a undoubtedly a legal mess, but strangely there were reports that it was having a some deterrent effect even before it got off the ground. Excuse the pun! We will never find out now.
Let's see what Lammy comes up with.
 
BrianW said:
I strongly suspect there are a lot of people flying under the radar, working cash-in-hand without any documentation whatever. In many cases, these individuals are grossly exploited. In some cases, they are modern slaves. They will not be paying tax or NI, and some will be doing illegal stuff, not necessarily willingly.

Any left-wing government, indeed any government with a shred of morality, should want to tackle this. ID cards for all would be a contribution towards tackling it, though not a complete solution. Like many other issues, it requires resources that aren't there.
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ID cards are completely irrelevant.
When it comes to working no NI number - no work.
swingeing fines for companies that breach it.
 
law74 said:
Not sure why this is so difficult for some to understand, but "illegal immigrants" do not have a National Insurance number, therefore they have no recourse to public funds.
Neither can they work legally.
If we wish to tackle illegal immigration, have the applications processed BEFORE they arrive here.
If they are found to be here working illegally, fine the employer £100,000 for each undocumented worker and 6 months imprisonment.
If no recourse to public funds and no one willing to risk employing them, and a legal route to apply, suddenly it is no longer as attractive a proposition.

Now, asylum seekers and levels of legal migration are two totally different discussions.
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Processing is the Labour Policy - as we get the numbers down can the Bibby Stockholm be towed to and moored at Parliament on the Thames? More than enough berths for all those MP's - they can stay FoC or if they prefer a house they can buy one with their own money
 
kaz7 said:
The business secretary was on sky this morning , a normal bloke , no slogans , gimmicks or lies , right nice it was
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John Reynolds right? I heard him talking about Port Talbot this morning. By the sounds of it he is going to offer Tata more money but they are still going to convert the plant to Electric Arc Furnaces in the name of lower carbon emissions. Which is frankly crap. As then we will still import new steel from blast furnaces still operating on the continent and further afield.

Imo he needs to raise duties if possible on imported steel and give tax breaks on
UK steel production for use in the UK, similar to what the unite union lady wants and try and make the blast furnaces at Port Talbot viable. We import much more steel than we make and these proposed electric arc furnaces will only make that worse.
 
mosssideblue said:
She calls a spade a spade and doesn’t dress things up which is refreshing after the last 14 years.

Why does a university education help someone be a better politician?
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It doesn’t, but I pray to god they don’t make her foreign secretary. Speaking your mind in blunt terms isn’t the best approach to international diplomacy.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
John Reynolds right? I heard him talking about Port Talbot this morning. By the sounds of it he is going to offer Tata more money but they are still going to convert the plant to Electric Arc Furnaces in the name of lower carbon emissions. Which is frankly crap. As then we will still import new steel from blast furnaces still operating on the continent and further afield.

Imo he needs to raise duties if possible on imported steel and give tax breaks on
UK steel production for use in the UK, similar to what the unite union lady wants and try and make the blast furnaces at Port Talbot viable. We import much more steel than we make and these proposed electric arc furnaces will only make that worse.
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Are you certain that's what he said? I watched it and took it as we would need to import steel whilst we transitioned to ES Furnaces, not afterwards.
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
It is also interesting that they are common place across the EU and in many countries compulsory across all of the populace.
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They are indeed, my wife uses her Portuguese ID for everything. There are some situations where they take ID cards over Passports - it is the preferred form of ID when interacting with any public service.

I'm not inherently against them but I think that goes to show that ID cards alone are not going to solve the problems we've got, it's not like the EU doesn't have a lot of the same problems despite having ID cards. As @Mr Kobayashi says above, it's really more about what you do with them and the enforcement in place as to whether there's any value in them at all. I think the argument of "how is this different to having an NI number" is a fair one and the additional value needs to be demonstrated to persuade me.

Speaking of enforcement though, I find it a bit surprising that Conservatives paint themselves as the party of law and order etc. and yet have been so flimsy on enforcement across a range of issues. It's like they thought they could build a society on the basis of "I'm going to count to 3 and you better have stopped doing that.... 1... 2... "

Seems likely that that is because they have stripped enforcement capabilities to the bone like every other service.
 
SkyBlueFlux said:
They are indeed, my wife uses her Portuguese ID for everything. There are some situations where they take ID cards over Passports - it is the preferred form of ID when interacting with any public service.

I'm not inherently against them but I think that goes to show that ID cards alone are not going to solve the problems we've got, it's not like the EU doesn't have a lot of the same problems despite having ID cards. As @Mr Kobayashi says above, it's really more about what you do with them and the enforcement in place as to whether there's any value in them at all. I think the argument of "how is this different to having an NI number" is a fair one and the additional value needs to be demonstrated to persuade me.

Speaking of enforcement though, I find it a bit surprising that Conservatives paint themselves as the party of law and order etc. and yet have been so flimsy on enforcement across a range of issues. It's like they thought they could build a society on the basis of "I'm going to count to 3 and you better have stopped doing that.... 1... 2... "

Seems likely that that is because they have stripped enforcement capabilities to the bone like every other service.
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Covid, War in Ukraine etc
 
mosssideblue said:
Are you certain that's what he said? I watched it and took it as we would need to import steel whilst we transitioned to ES Furnaces, not afterwards.
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That was my understanding of what he meant. The issue I have is we don't need to be transitioning to Electric Arc Furnaces while still importing steel from Blast Furnaces abroad. We need the capability as a country to make our own steel. https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/blast-furnace-closure-leaves-uk-woefully-underprepared-for-war
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
That was my understanding of what he meant. The issue I have is we don't need to be transitioning to Electric Arc Furnaces while still importing steel from Blast Furnaces abroad. We need the capability as a country to make our own steel. https://www.gmb.org.uk/news/blast-furnace-closure-leaves-uk-woefully-underprepared-for-war
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Not sure I understand your point. The policy is that we will be migrating to EA Furnaces as part of the climate programme and once we have them we will be making our own steel using them.

Imports will only be necessary for the transition period
 
mosssideblue said:
Not sure I understand your point. The policy is that we will be migrating to EA Furnaces as part of the climate programme and once we have them we will be making our own steel using them.

Imports will only be necessary for the transition period
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The policy is one that only the UK seems to be following. We will be the only country in the G20 to not be able to make its own steel?

You cannot make steel using electric Arc Furnaces you can only recycle old steel.

You make steel using ore and coke in a blast furnace hence the high carbon release, but the steel produced
is usually considered better quality.

About 7 years ago even the conservatives recognised this and stated that the Port Talbot steel works formed part of the UKs critical infrastructure and needed supporting. What's changed??
 
Churchlawtonblue said:
The policy is one that only the UK seems to be following. We will be the only country in the G20 to not be able to make its own steel?

You cannot make steel using electric Arc Furnaces you can only recycle old steel.

You make steel using ore and coke in a blast furnace hence the high carbon release, but the steel produced
is usually considered better quality.

About 7 years ago even the conservatives recognised this and stated that the Port Talbot steel works formed part of the UKs critical infrastructure and needed supporting. What's changed??
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Every day a school day, wasn't aware that was the case
 
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