The Labour Government

Got it in one.

It's also why we have riots in the streets and racism is being allowed to fester, because few politicians are prepared to talk about peoples' concerns and openly debate, educate and where necessary, reform.
To be honest I stop short at appeasing the views of the people rioting. Their histories sort of prove that they're the wrong people to engage in debate with. Quite a few of them are themselves nonces, criminals and degenerates who just wanted a scrap and then they used the deaths of three girls in Southport as an excuse to go out and do it.

There is then a greater number who are probably suspicious but don't care enough to riot. You can debate with these people but they're just not armed with the facts. They just want public services that work again however unfortunately they've been sold a lie that immigration is the sole reason why everything is broken.
 
No. Any discriminatory practices that aren't compatible with UK law should be illegal. I don't see how this stops people from practicing their religion. Or are you saying that religious domination and potential discrimination through law is part of practicing Islam and should be tolerated?

Sharia courts are not churches or mosques, they're literal courts used to enforce religious law, laws that are not recognised in the UK. So why should they be tolerated?
Do you take the same view of Mosaic law administered by Beth Dins?

It's the same. The Beth Din only binds devout Jews and the Sharia courts only bind devout Muslims. They have zero impact on the rest of us and nothing they decide overrules a decision of the King's courts.

Another parallel is the jurisdiction of the Roman Catholic church. If you're a devout Catholic and want your Catholic marriage cancelled you have go through the Church and the Church decides whether to give you an annulment or not. Again, this does not bind the King's courts, but it does determine whether or not, as a practising Catholic, you can marry again and still receive communion. Again, it has damn all authority over non-Catholics.

If you have a fallout with your Muslim neighbour, you can't be made to have the matter decided by a Sharia court. Although two Muslims might agree to have it so decided. Just as two Church of England people could ask the local Vicar to arbitrate between them. In neither case is the decision binding in UK law.
 
To be honest I stop short at appeasing the views of the people rioting. Their histories sort of prove that they're the wrong people to engage in debate with. Quite a few of them are themselves nonces, criminals and degenerates who just wanted a scrap and then they used the deaths of three girls in Southport as an excuse to go out and do it.

There is then a greater number who are probably suspicious but don't care enough to riot. You can debate with these people but they're just not armed with the facts. They just want public services that work again however unfortunately they've been sold a lie that immigration is the sole reason why everything is broken.
Agree with all of that.

I certainly did not wish to appear to be condoning or even explaining the riots, which are wholly unacceptable on every level irrespective of "reason" or motivation. There can be none.

I was more referring to the non-rioters who are still nevertheless not very happy for, as you say, a variety of reasons. But some of which are related to mass immigration.
 
Perhaps not somethig for the Labour Party thread, but I am against all religions. I think religion is silly nonsense with roots thousands of years ago when we knew no better. And now we do know better. It's all bollocks and has no place in modern society IMO. It would not be so bad if it was harmless bollocks, but it clearly is a force for evil and conflict all over the world. We'd be far better off without it.

In years to come we will look back on religion as we now look back on the Roman gods. We will say to ourselves, what on earth was anyone thinking, believing in that crap.

Religion only perpetuates because of indoctrination by those already indoctrinated of their children, who are too young to form their own opinions. I have a bit of a problem with this. Parents do not "own" their kids. They are not theirs to do with as they wish, simply because the kids are young and immature. I think its wrong that parents and schools should therefore be telling kids THE WAY IT IS and effectively forcing them to believe it, and continuing the bollocks down the generations.

Islam is particularly bad at this, with Quran's threats of death penalty for anyone leaving Islam. I think it's outrageous that such brainwashing is allowed TBH. I would probably ban faith schools at the very least. All faith schools. I would insist that if religion was taught in school - and I would prefer it is not - then there is an obligation to position all religions equally and equally with atheism, so children can make up their own minds.
 
This is quite a revealing exchange indeed.

There is one law here in the UK mate, which MUST be applied equally. We cannot have a situation where some faction decides that they don't agree with it and it doesn't apply to them. This is at the nub of what all the sociai unrest is about. Peoples' perceived erosion of British values and unwillingness of certain factions to adapt to our British culture and ways of life.
Good grief. "My perception that some people don't think British law applies to them justifies my breaking British law. It's the British way."
 
But what I'm saying is they don't and won't. Homosexuality was decriminalised in 1967, has that stopped people from being homophobic or discriminating against gay people? Islam is especially discriminatory against gay people, should we just somehow accept this because the gay man can go to the police if need be? Of course not, we fight discrimination at every corner and any discriminatory religion based culture should be fought against.

The reality of UK law is no person should experience discrimination full stop. Legislation exists against discrimination and therefore a religious based law with its own court is completely incompatible with the UK. At the moment we only tolerate it because we're too scared to challenge it otherwise UK law would recognise their existence.

The greatest advances in equality and discrimination have actually not come through law, they've come through the wholesale rejection of religion and the fact that most people's values aren't built upon religion anymore. Should we therefore really accept the introduction of the worst aspects of a religion and consider it part and parcel of 'tolerance' ?


Tories passed ''Section 28'' in 1988 ... so in the eyes of the Conservatives .. homosexuality hadn't been decriminalised.

We've allowed Jewish Courts in the UK for decades


We've had Catholic courts since the middle ages


Same as Protestants


Religious Courts are common in most countries and deal with disputes not commonly handled by the prevailing judicial system .

Just saying
 
Have noticed that the discussion on this thread has turned to Shariah law. Only had a quick look at a few posts but the following may be of some interest.

First of all, the phrase ‘creeping Shariah law’ (a concern for many and a phrase that I have encountered in the past) dates back to some misreported comments made by former Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams.

In fact, Shariah law has no traction in UK law. None whatsoever. See John Bowen’s excellent little book Blaming Islam for more on this.

Secondly, what usually gets missed from any discussion of Shariah is what that word means for moderate/liberal Muslims. For moderate Muslims, God's mind is the homeland of Shariah. In other words, Shariah plays roughly the same role that eternal law does in Thomas Aquinas's Natural Law theory. What this means is that, since God's mind cannot be entirely known by humans, they have to figure out what the best legal system is.

For Aquinas, that involved using our God-given power of reason plus revelation (the Bible) to arrive at one. For Muslims, there is the Qur'an (though from what I recall, there aren't many passages in it to do with legal matters) and hadith (stories about what Muhammad said and did that are regarded as having varying degrees of veracity depending on the chain of transmitters or isnad for any particular story).

So when most people think they are talking about Shariah, they aren't. What they are doing is discussing fiqh or jurisprudence.

Plus, people tend to write about Islamic jurisprudence as if it were a monolithic entity when, in fact, historically, there have been about 130 schools of Islamic legal thought. I suspect that what those people are referring to is the Hanbalite law school so selectively drawn upon by the Saudis. It's from that lot that we get approval for a lot of the vile and nasty stuff.

According to the moderate conception of fiqh, it can only approximate Shariah, as it would be presumptuous for a moderate Muslim to second guess the mind of God. This explains the proliferation of law schools within Islam and the emphasis on the use of 'aql' or reason, to constantly revise the law to uphold justice.

In effect, what this means is that most of what is called Islamic law is a human product subject to error, revision, development and nullification. The eternal law as it exists in God's mind is perfect, but it is also inaccessible to human beings. Human beings should strive to reach for and understand the divine law, but it is arrogant and offensive to ever claim that we could be certain that we have successfully grasped the eternal law.

Therefore moderates contend that a jurist must humbly admit the possibility that what is claimed as Islamic law is subject to error. He must expend his best efforts to understand the eternal law, but must never assume that his opinion is identical to it. Again, there are some parallels with Aquinas's conception of rationality (recta ratio) in his own theological and ethical system, the one that has been influential on Catholicism.

For the jihadists, contrastingly, using reason is forbidden. All that Muslims need to do is find the law and apply it strictly and faithfully, and that is the end of the process. Puritans believe that God made about 90% of the law clear in Qur'an and hadith, leaving about 10% open to debate.

In other words, God is conceived of like a micromanager, and the social impact that the law might have upon people is disregarded. This is why, for example, jihadists have been so unpopular when they have tried to impose their uber-harsh form of Islamic law on other Muslims. They are oblivious to the horrendous suffering caused by the laws they have enforced. This is because they believe the laws they have imposed really do reflect the mind of God, so there is no point in evaluating the actual impact they have.

So there you go. That's my attempt to have a go at explaining the difference between the moderate and Islamist/Salafi-jihadist notions of Islamic jurisprudence.

In the UK, are there lots of Muslims who are Islamists? Yes.

Would they like to see a strict form of Shariah law introduced? Yes.

An example would be Hizb ut-Tahrir, an organisation that is now proscribed. Ed Husain's The Islamist will tell you all about them.

But in that book, Husain also describes the more moderate and liberal form of Islam that used to hold sway in much of the Islamic world until the Saudis started spreading their intolerant version of the faith on the back of their oil wealth. Then, of course, you have to factor in the Iranian Shia, who are just as bad.

But this is all recent. Go back a hundred years and this is what Western scholars were saying about Islam:

First of all, here's Hamilton Gibb:

“It possesses a magnificent tradition of inter-racial understanding and cooperation. No other society has such a record of success uniting in an equality of status, of opportunity, and of endeavours, so many and so various races of mankind.”

Then there is the assessment of Sir Thomas Arnold:

“On the whole, unbelievers have enjoyed under Muhammadan rule a measure of toleration, the like of which is not to be found in Europe until quite modern times. Forcible conversion was forbidden, in accordance with the precepts of the Quran… The very existence of so many Christian sects and communities in countries that have been for centuries under Muhammadan rule is an abiding testimony to the toleration they have enjoyed, and shows that the persecutions they have from time to time been called upon to endure at the hands of bigots and fanatics, have been excited by some special and local circumstances rather than inspired by a settled principle of intolerance… But such oppression is wholly without the sanction of Muhammadan law, either religious or civil”.

Now believe it or not, there are lots of Muslims, many of whom reside here, who are as repulsed by the excesses of the worst kinds of fiqh as the rest of us. As for the surveys that suggest that they aren't, Charles Kurzman has some pointed observations to make about the way that those questions are framed in this book:

1725466636041.png

And you see, that's the thing. You rarely encounter liberal Islam outside of academia, probably because it isn't of interest or newsworthy to a media that wants to fan the flames of anti-Muslim bigotry.

So what I would encourage people who are concerned about Shariah is therefore to read up on it. Because the academic writing on it is actually fascinating and not at all dry or dull. Here are some recommendations.

Khaled Abou El Fadl - The Great Theft: Wrestling Islam from the Extremists

El Fadl is - for my money - the world's leading authority on Shariah and an obvious good guy. This interview with him is well-worth reading:


Then there's these two:

Sadakat Kadri - Heaven on Earth: A Journey Through Shariah Law

I don't have Kadri's book any more but he is a UK lawyer and Muslim, whose other publication was on the trial of OJ Simpson. Don't be put off by the approving blurb by Boris Johnson on the cover.

1725467990503.png

Lastly, this is a US publication but the title might reassure. I have it but haven't got around to it yet:

1725468089344.png
 

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