The Labour Government

Vic said:
Well, if you look at my posts on the subject, I think you'll find I've been careful not to say what I actually think of the decision to stop wfa. All I've sought to do is give a bit of perspective -

(a) that it will not be ruinous for most pensioners - average pensioner income is two-thirds the average wage and pensioners don't usually have big housing costs, travel to work costs or families to feed;
(b) that pensioner poverty should be dealt with (so not dealing with the just-above-pension-credit level cohort is a mistake);
(c) that compared to last winter, energy costs are down, some food prices are actually down, and pensions have gone up in the last two years by nearly ten times the basic wfa;
(d) that the Tories seem to be simultaneously disgusted with Labour's decision but disgustingly gleeful about it, and
(e) if 2 million pensioners survived Trussonomics and 11% inflation, decimated bus services and other Tory cuts, most will survive this. (Insensitive, but true.)

Oh, and the increase in the age at which the rest of you start to get your pension is necessary because it all costs money and I'm sure the 4% Tory NI cut will compensate you for that. (Now have I got the Tory "divide and rule" philosophy about right?)

I think I'll have a night off now.
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I appreciate your measured post, seriously. You are one of the very few posters on here who has the decency to admit when you are wrong about something, I respect you for that.

If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to your post above.

(a) Agreed, I have absolutely no issue with removing WFA from more wealthy pensioners. Personally, I think it's a bit petty doing so, and not worth the hassle. I don't think giving anyone £300 back after they'd paid taxes and NI for 40 years is a dreadful thing, but if the government wants to remove it, no big deal.

(b) Also agreed. I am not sure it is being dealt with though, which is why I am so concerned about the removal of WFA.

(c) Not agreed. Energy costs are down this winter by around £100 per household. However last year every household got a £300 subsidy from the government, so in fact every household is £200 worse of this winter, compared to last. That's BEFORE Labour take away the £300 for pensioners, which then makes them £500 worse off. And I wonder about your maths. if the WFA is £300, have pensions gone up £3,000 per person in 2 years? Genuinely I don't know. Staggering if true. I am not aware of any falling food prices. Inflation has fallen, which just means prices are going up more slowly. But I have not seen any negative inflation. Certainly not overall, although maybe the odd thing here or there is cheaper. Food prices as a whole are still rising.

(d) I don't think anyone is gleeful about it. I am pleased Labour are making fuck ups all over the place (IMO) but I am genuinely disgusted at the removal of WFA for people on £12k per year or less. It's indefensible. What's even more annoying is their constant lying about it. Lying that they had no choice. What utter rubbish. OF COURSE they had a choice. Please stop lying. We are not fools.

(e) I don't lay all those issues at the Tories door. Inflation went up globally to similar levels. The INDEPENDENT bank of england was responsible for keeping it low and failed. I am not in favour of an independent BoE myself, and notably, Labour established its independence. Anyway, no-one dies from missing a bus service, but thousands of elderly every year die of the cold. In the latest figures i have seen there were 13,400 excess deaths in winter in 20/21, and that was the 2nd lowest number in 70 years! Of course, not all "died of cold" but they did die from complications relating to it. The 13,400 number is the excess deaths compared to summer months, so it is statistically inescapable the thousands of people die from the lower temperatures. Of course this does not include the ENORMOUS cost to the NHS of the elderly getting flu or pneumonia and then being bed-blockers in hospital for weeks or even months.
 
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Chippy_boy said:
I appreciate your measured post, seriously. You are one of the very few posters on here who has the decency to admit when you are wrong about something, I respect you for that.

If I may, I'd like to add my perspective to your post above.

(a) Agreed, I have absolutely no issue with removing WFA from more wealthy pensioners. Personally, I think it's a bit petty doing so, and not worth the hassle. I don't think giving anyone £300 back after they'd paid taxes and NI for 40 years is a dreadful thing, but if the government wants to remove it, no big deal.

(b) Also agreed. I am not sure it is being dealt with though, which is why I am so concerned about the removal of WFA.

(c) Not agreed. Energy costs are down this winter by around £100 per household. However last year every household got a £300 subsidy from the government, so in fact every household is £200 worse of this winter, compared to last. That's BEFORE Labour take away the £300 for pensioners, which then makes them £500 worse off. And I wonder about your maths. if the WFA is £300, have pensions gone up £3,000 per person in 2 years? Genuinely I don't know. Staggering if true. I am not aware of any falling food prices. Inflation has fallen, which just means prices are going up more slowly. But I have not seen any negative inflation. Certainly not overall, although maybe the odd thing here or there is cheaper. Food prices as a whole are still rising.

(d) I don't think anyone is gleeful about it. I am pleased Labour are making fuck ups all over the place (IMO) but I am genuinely disgusted at the removal of WFA for people on £12k per year or less. It's indefensible. What's even more annoying is their constant lying about it. Lying that they had no choice. What utter rubbish. OF COURSE they had a choice. Please stop lying. We are not fools.

(e) I don't lay all those issues at the Tories door. Inflation went up globally to similar levels. The INDEPENDENT bank of england was responsible for keeping it low and failed. I am not in favour of an independent BoE myself, and notably, Labour established its independence. Anyway, no-one dies from missing a bus service, but thousands of elderly every year die of the cold. In the latest figures i have seen there were 13,400 excess deaths in winter in 20/21, and that was the 2nd lowest number in 70 years! Of course, not all "died of cold" but they did die from complications relating to it. The 13,400 number is the excess deaths compared to summer months.
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Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages
 
kaz7 said:
Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages
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Lord Darzi, having done a deep dive into the state of the nhs, disagrees with you. He largely blames poor productivity, not any lack of budget.
 
kaz7 said:
Of course the issues are to be laid at the tories door, for 14 yrs they cut every budget to the bone , the nhs staff are running on fumes , the austerity has decimated public services , they cut the pandemic planning to the bone and allowed millions of items of ppe go out of date hence the scrabble to get out ridiculous contracts to get some to the staff wearing bin bags as ppe . As i understand it every country has to do pandemic planning and obama warned there was a pandemic loaming large

The tories always talk about covid and ukraine and never admit to being in charge for ten years before covid , their choices are going to be felt for years , ask those with mortages
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And of course the mother of all shitshows Brexit that has cost us £100B a year since 2019. That’s a cool half a trillion quid. And that’s before we look at all the tradespeople who were pushed out of the uk, the car plant closures and general lack of investment. All at the Tories door.
 
Jam Tomorrow said:
And of course the mother of all shitshows Brexit that has cost us £100B a year since 2019. That’s a cool half a trillion quid. And that’s before we look at all the tradespeople who were pushed out of the uk, the car plant closures and general lack of investment. All at the Tories door.
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Shit i forgot about brexit ! Another pointless endevour . Nobody understood what leaving europe meant despite people like farage insisting the voters were clued up on what voting leave meant , i saw loads of plebs over the weeks following the vote asking why the fuck hadnt we left already, the week after the vote , if only it was that simple
 
kaz7 said:
Why , what has he said ?
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He blames poor productivity rather than any lack of budget. Starmer has indicated his agreement and says ‘nhs you must reform, if you want any increase in budget.’
For example, over twenty years ago, I identified bed blocking as a key issue at a large west London trust. At the last count, it had got worse. All the trust had to do was give some of their budget to primary care. Horror on their faces! Yet they spent a fortune on hepatic pumps which had a minor effect on some patients.
Darzi too talked about the effects of bed blocking just this week.
 
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