Might they be Afghan refugees who served alongside our armed forces in Afghanistan and provided important support to Her Majesty’s Government defence and security mission there, predominantly those who were employed directly, or in certain special cases via contractors, and who are assessed to be at serious risk as a result of such work?In Altrincham we have a hotel full of asylum seekers getting fed and watered at our expense. They also get free internet at local libraries and now are being given driving lessons. They have contributed zero to the tax system.
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A couple of points. Public sector workers pay tax. A lot of Pensioners pay tax and some have received additional tax demands for interest earned on savings accounts for the 24/25 tax year - my 87 year old mum is still outraged by this. My pointing out that income tax is based on what you earn did not go down well.
Head count in the Civil Service was inevitably going to increase after Brexit as Brexit requires a larger state to manage a reduced economy. It’s what people voted for and what they got. Making Civil Servants go into the office is performative politics. The illusion of doing something which makes no difference. Ditto whipping them at their desks for greater efficiency.
Some of the nine million economically inactive still pay tax. I should know as technically I am one. Too young to qualify for state pension and not actively looking for work. This obviously doesn’t mean no income hence I pay tax. I also pay tax on things I buy or for services.
We have migration because we have a labour shortage. You may decry the ‘economically inactive’ and ‘idlers’ for this labour shortage, but it exists and industry, both private and public, requires foreign labour. That’s the reality.
Finally, good luck in distinguishing between the idlers and the genuinely sick. People dodging work and scamming the system is the price we pay for a Welfare State. The only real solution is to abolish the Welfare State and Healthcare. The sick will die and the healthy will work. It will be a key economic plank of Reform. They will even have a catchy slogan like ‘Work is Freedom’ or something like that.
Hi Bob,
In reply,
Yes, they do pay tax but their jobs are funded by the wealth generated by the private sector.
I agree headcount would increase due to Brexit and Covid but I also believe the last government lost control. I also believe that the prevailing WFH culture in the Civil service is the biggest contributor to their loss of productivity . I am not opposed to WFH per se however I can see that many of the largest private companies are seeing the need to row back on this and move to at least 3 days in the office. Even the Governor of the Bank of England is talking about public sector productivity dragging on the economy. I heard Pat McFadden on TV a couple of weeks ago talking about this and he was clear about his reservations on WFH and productivity. I think change will happen here though given Labour will struggle with the unions it won't happen fast enough.
Me to.
It's not a reality we can afford or accept. The levels of worklessness and immigration we have are the product of our version of welfare. Doing nothing isn't an option as even Reeves and Starmer are finding out. We cannot afford the Welfare and the electorate will no longer tolerate the migration . If this government will not deal with it the next one surely will.
Again, how can we be so complacent to accept that. The genuinely sick and disabled have to suffer because as a society we do not have the resolve to mobilise ourselves to identify benefit cheats .
We need to, otherwise Bob the end will be the IMF and where will our welfare , pensions etc be after that ?
You are 100% correct, but it doesn't hide the fact that unlike myself they have paid no taxes whatsoever and are costing taxpayers a fair amount of money.
That is the reason that the likes of Nigel Farage are gaining so much support.
No they dont pay their fair share relative to their ability to pay. You are talking about income tax which is not really a discussion when it comes to total income. I pay shit loads of tax, as Im lucky enough to have a very good salary but for many in the top 1%, salary isnt important. I only had this conversation with our CEO over dinner the other week, who not unsurprisingly wondered why everyone further down the tree wasn't excited about the share price and were disappointed by the pay awards (which were ok but unspectacular) until I made him aware that only those in the senior leadership team had share options. To many at the top of the tree they are completely out of touch from reality and being payed a percentage of your salary in share options gives you a massive tax break which really shouldn't exist in a society where we are "all in it together". Even if you take aside the share options for others its about income gained from other assets which are only subject to CGT which remains significantly out of step with income tax. To cap it off being able to put £60k into a pension is also a very large tax break for the well paid, great for those of us who can because its not required to pay the bills and put food on the table, but hardly fair when you look at people struggling.
The system is completely out of kilter and that's coming from someone who benefits from it. Don't get me wrong people should be rewarded for excellence and great business acumen, but it should be done in a way that still means they pay their share of tax relative to their ability to pay.
As regards wealthy non doms, you can move your affairs but you cant move you physical assets like property. As I said before why they gave them a warning and stay of execution followed by watered down proposals before hitting them with taxes is beyond me, some of the more suspicious might say it was by design as a gentleman's agreement, as its "not the done thing". Personally they should have been hit with immediate effect the day after the last budget and the ability to use the CGT bed and breakfast rules should have been suspended. If you're only getting one bite of the cherry you better make it a big one.
Am I being an idealist, yes, but I also know what its like to have sod all and can see what's fair and what's isnt. We shouldn't live in a society where you need organisations like the Trussell Trust to feed people but sadly we do.
If it helps - people who are determined enough to escape these situations, and travel half way across the world, tend to be quite keen to get into work and start paying some of that money back.
Farage is just looking for easy targets that allow him to stoke up racist tensions, while pretending to have other priorities. While you'd hope Labour will gradually improve the system that was deliberately neglected by the Tories - cut down the delays (and the costs of those delays), and help people get on with their lives a lot quicker - it's still a relatively small number of people, and has little effect on most of our lives.
We're always going to have asylum seekers, and it's always going to cost money to process them, and people like Farage are always going to stoke up tensions. The best way to deal with it, is to improve the NHS, put money into schools, and build social housing, so less people are in need, and they're less likely to start looking for others to blame.
Deluded. Seek help.Might they be Afghan refugees who served alongside our armed forces in Afghanistan and provided important support to Her Majesty’s Government defence and security mission there, predominantly those who were employed directly, or in certain special cases via contractors, and who are assessed to be at serious risk as a result of such work?
Or is it just so that they can drive to help different people in need when they get a care-worker job?
Good, if their claims are accepted,and over half probably will be they will be more ready to contribute to the country.I think people would be more acceptable to cuts to welfare and increase prices and taxes if they didn’t witness disgraceful waste of our money first hand.
In Altrincham we have a hotel full of asylum seekers getting fed and watered at our expense. They also get free internet at local libraries and now are being given driving lessons. They have contributed zero to the tax system.
The conservatives could not get to grips with this problem and the signs are that the Labour party can’t either.
There were similar ones released just after the budget, which didn't have the welfare changes that have since been announced, so I think this is the up to date one.
I fully agree they want to work by and large - they want a better life after all, however the problem with your financial argument is that they would need to be earning £40k+ to be breaking even - and £50k+ to be paying anything back (ie no longer a net recipient of tax payer money and a net contributor).
Thats not to say they weren’t professional people back home capable of performing a job at those numbers or much more but practically that’s not going to happen. They’ll be delivery drivers or veg pickers on minimum wage.
The only practical way I can think of to deal with this is safe routes (apply at embassy or consulate), accept their applications - let them tell us what they can do - get them tested to prove they are capable. Give them an immigrant qualification of sorts to reflect that. Anyone arriving on an inflatable after that becomes available should be deported to their homeland immediately with no right of appeal.
We’ve had an unhealthy relationship with immigration for the longest time - we’re a strange nation in that regard.
Did it have the welfare changes in it? Certainly it wasn’t clear to me but fair enough if I misread it.
Wasn't referring to you personally, just the whole mess in generalI voted Labour as I have all my adult life except for one occasion but you keep convincing yourself “if they think differently, they must be Tories”.
Deluded. Seek help.
I understand your point about "breaking even", but it assumes that personal taxes are the only contribution someone makes to the tax base.
We're told to be grateful to the top 10% because they contribute such a big proportion of taxes, but how many wealthy people, or companies, make money without relying on those earning under £40k?
Take out all those people who cost the state more than they contribute, and I think we'd find out pretty damn quickly, that they're the ones generating the vast majority of the wealth in this country. The fact that we have a society which allows increasing amounts to go to those with a bit more power, doesn't mean those powerful people are the real "net contributors".
That deserves more than a like. Who are the real wealth-earners? The people who put in the capital or their labourers actually making stuff?I understand your point about "breaking even", but it assumes that personal taxes are the only contribution someone makes to the tax base.
We're told to be grateful to the top 10% because they contribute such a big proportion of taxes, but how many wealthy people, or companies, make money without relying on those earning under £40k?
Take out all those people who cost the state more than they contribute, and I think we'd find out pretty damn quickly, that they're the ones generating the vast majority of the wealth in this country. The fact that we have a society which allows increasing amounts to go to those with a bit more power, doesn't mean those powerful people are the real "net contributors".
Its a CSOP scheme which is outside Income Tax and NI you only pay CGT on the difference between the strike price and the sale price assuming you wait 3 yrs. Anything less than 3yrs and you pay income tax and NI. So it is a tax break in that you are only paying CGT which is significantly less than what the marginal tax rate would be if it was salaried.Just to point out that getting a portion of your bonus in stock is not a tax break for the recipient. When the stock is divested (usually 1/3rd after 2 years and 2/3rds after 3) to the employee a portion (depending on your income tax %) is immediately sold at market price and paid to the treasury the rest is given to the employee.
I don’t know how your specific scheme works but that’s how the vast vast majority of these schemes work.
Its a CSOP scheme which is outside Income Tax and NI you only pay CGT on the difference between the strike price and the sale price assuming you wait 3 yrs. Anything less than 3yrs and you pay income tax and NI. So it is a tax break in that you are only paying CGT which is significantly less than what the marginal tax rate would be if it was salaried.