The Labour Government

xgorton said:
Don't understand why people pay in every month,I've been with utility warehouse for the last 12 years every month I get my Gas and Electricity bill with the correct reading 2 weeks later it comes out of my bank.
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British Gas let me pay quarterly at same per kWh rate.
 
Chippy_boy said:
...

The Tories (and I) believe that the best way to pay for these things is through a strong economy, and we also believe that you do not create a strong economy by first making people poorer. Labour think the opposite. They think it is better to take more money off people, spend it and then that will make the economy stronger. It won't. It never has and never will. The ideology is broken and has been proved to be broken countless times over, all the world over....
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Surely it depends who you take from and where you spend it.

Reaganomics (and Thatcherism) was based on the trickle down nonsense of taking money from the poor and giving it to the rich in tax cuts.

The poor spend 100% of what they get, in the UK. The rich "save" a lot and a lot of what they spend is on luxury imports or holidays abroad - no good for the UK economy.

"We have exchanged the certain spending of the poor for the discretionary spending of the rich" (Galbraith).
 
Chippy_boy said:
At the risk of repeating myself, also, in normal walks of life and employer will say "Sorry <workforce< but the figures this year are not good and you're not getting a payrise. Why this is unthinkable in the public sector, I don't know.

Worse, in the private sector, they might also say "And 10% of you are being made redundant". Doctors don't have to worry about that either.

Honest to god, if I had my career choices all over again, I'd choose the public sector for sure. People rarely get sacked, they earn very good money, get more holidays, get great pensions and get to retire early. And get to moan incessantly about hard done by they are. Oh, and get MBE's and OBE's thrown in as well.
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I must confess it is great.

I myself just hit 55 in June, just had 2 weeks in Greece to contemplate, amongst others things if I should retire now as I can access my pension but it would be reduced a tad at such a young age.

I might milk it a few more years, hopefully get made redundant as then the money really roles in.

Full pension and a pay out.

Fully paid up union member also here and they have done me wonders. Saved my bacon a few times when I have got into scrapes.

Never understood working for the private sector, although I have seem people reap some rewards, usually self employed but those working for others in that area, well it’s all seems a ballache.

Set hours, pressures, no real pay increases, no sick pay, we get 6 months full and then 6 months half, less holidays. I get 32 plus bank holidays.

The tories and labour have served me ok I would say.

Roll on another season following the blues. Must save some leave for the trips in Europe
 
Chippy_boy said:
It comes down to this.

I assume you accept that to buy a banana, you have to pay for a banana?

Same with much of the above. You choose to buy off the train drivers, or pay for Breakfast clubs or whatever... and hand over the money to do so, or not.

The Tories (and I) believe that the best way to pay for these things is through a strong economy, and we also believe that you do not create a strong economy by first making people poorer. Labour think the opposite. They think it is better to take more money off people, spend it and then that will make the economy stronger. It won't. It never has and never will. The ideology is broken and has been proved to be broken countless times over, all the world over.

I am sick to death of hearing Labour MPs and representatives bragging about how much OF OTHER PEOPLES' MONEY, they have spent on X, Y or Z. Any wanker can do that. Labour are breaking Britain in slow motion. Not by stopping train strikes (FOR NOW!) of course, that's great, marvellous, let's all have a party. But by what they are doing to pay for such nonsense. And by what they are not doing, like controlling immigration at all. (The drop in net migration is by their own admission, a direct consequence of measures introduced by the Tories, THAT LABOUR OPPOSED.)

It will be fucked beyond all recognition by 2029 if they carry on at this rate, sooner if Rayner et all get the helm.
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Tories believe in making people poorer. Public sector wages, private sector wages, no minimum wage legislation- the Tories literally prefer to see people earn less.

This in turn, weakens the economy as people have less disposable income and thus spend less and buy less etc etc.

The Tories ideal worker is someone who does not expect to get an annual pay rise nor believe he should get a pay rise and will happily accept an occasional bone of a pay rise in line with the cost of living.

And that worker (poor sap) will happily vote Tory.
 
M18CTID said:
If they get in, let’s see what effect their proposed £80 billion of unfunded tax cuts have. Assuming they go ahead with them that is.

I’ll also dispute that it hasn’t been a succession of disasters since 1997. The early Blair years were far from a disaster and Cameron was doing ok until he fucked up and agreed to a public vote on Brexit.
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Blair's early years benefitted from the decent economic legacy left to him from Major and in common with the rest of the Western economies had a huge boost from the explosive growth of China and the cheap manufactures that helped the inflation numbers and aided in giving consumers a feeling of prosperity. Almost all Western economies appeared to be doing well in that period - little to do with him and Brown and it didn't take them long to fritter it away.
Fully embracing Globalisation, at the expense of his core support he laid the foundations for many of our ills today, Enshrining the Human Rights act into our law, The Equality act, these two are the bedrock of the identity politics and human rights culture that have divided and frustrate us these last 20 years. The Climate change act - ensuring we have the highest energy prices in the world with all the ensuing impact on our industry. Opening the door to mass migration, hugely expanding in -work benefits ,trapping millions in poverty and extinguishing aspiration. Destroying the Pension industry in the UK leading to the closure of most final salary / defined benefit schemes. The failed NHS reforms, particularly the GP contracts which ended the traditional patient / GP relationship for most. The expansion of Universities to offer worthless and costly degrees at the expense of traditional vocational routes into the workplace leaving our workforce disjointed for at least a generation , I could go on and on ..
Did I mention the War?
He was a fucking disgrace. Betrayed the working class voters he was supposed to represent, betrayed the Labour Party , betrayed the country.
What did Cameron do ...
Proclaimed himself the " heir to Blair" says it all . Met him once, nice enough, absolutely shallow.
Since 1997 for me.
 
BobKowalski said:
Tories believe in making people poorer. Public sector wages, private sector wages, no minimum wage legislation- the Tories literally prefer to see people earn less.

This in turn, weakens the economy as people have less disposable income and thus spend less and buy less etc etc.

The Tories ideal worker is someone who does not expect to get an annual pay rise nor believe he should get a pay rise and will happily accept an occasional bone of a pay rise in line with the cost of living.

And that worker (poor sap) will happily vote Tory.
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One word: Nonsense.
You cannot possibly be that dim. Surely this is a wind up?
 
Hertzblue said:
Blair's early years benefitted from the decent economic legacy left to him from Major and in common with the rest of the Western economies had a huge boost from the explosive growth of China and the cheap manufactures that helped the inflation numbers and aided in giving consumers a feeling of prosperity. Almost all Western economies appeared to be doing well in that period - little to do with him and Brown and it didn't take them long to fritter it away.
Fully embracing Globalisation, at the expense of his core support he laid the foundations for many of our ills today, Enshrining the Human Rights act into our law, The Equality act, these two are the bedrock of the identity politics and human rights culture that have divided and frustrate us these last 20 years. The Climate change act - ensuring we have the highest energy prices in the world with all the ensuing impact on our industry. Opening the door to mass migration, hugely expanding in -work benefits ,trapping millions in poverty and extinguishing aspiration. Destroying the Pension industry in the UK leading to the closure of most final salary / defined benefit schemes. The failed NHS reforms, particularly the GP contracts which ended the traditional patient / GP relationship for most. The expansion of Universities to offer worthless and costly degrees at the expense of traditional vocational routes into the workplace leaving our workforce disjointed for at least a generation , I could go on and on ..
Did I mention the War?
He was a fucking disgrace. Betrayed the working class voters he was supposed to represent, betrayed the Labour Party , betrayed the country.
What did Cameron do ...
Proclaimed himself the " heir to Blair" says it all . Met him once, nice enough, absolutely shallow.
Since 1997 for me.
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Just a couple of things

My kids both got firsts in what you would doubtless call worthless degrees. My lad has just completed on the purchase of a £400k house. His first home which he can afford because he got what you would consider a Mickey Mouse degree.

War? War? Yes you can mention war. It was a disgrace under Blair that we slavishly followed Bush and I am sure I can get your agreement that was a war predicated on lies. However we entered a war under Labour and the economy didn't take a hit. Ukraine entered a war with Russia and all the Tories bang on about is thats one reason why our economy took a hit. The Iraq war started 6 years into a growing UK economy which could absorb the hit the invasion of another country came about after 12 years of Tory austerity and cuts leading to stagnant growth.
 
hampshireblue said:
ST4 takes 5-8 years AFTER a degree and the 2 year foundation course. So they are, in some cases 10 years into their career and still getting a basic of £62k as well as having the student loan to repay. My recent experience would indicate they regulalry work beyond their shift times and often are working and sleeping in the hospital as it's not worth their while going home between shifts and are often on call.
If I was Streeting,I would be not charging them for the degree but would require them to remain employed 100% by the NHS for say, 10-12 years after they qualify.

It's important not to mix up resident doctors with consultants though as most RDs don't carry out external work.
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You are seriously moaning that they "only" have a basic paid as little as £62k before add-ons - realistically £80k to £100k. Seriously??? Wow.
 
hampshireblue said:
Public sector pay since 2010:
In 2010, the coalition government announced a two-year public sector pay freeze. This was followed by a 1% average pay cap on public sector pay awards. This cap was lifted in 2017 and from 2018 to 2020 most parts of the public sector received annual pay awards above 2%.
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Excellent wasn't it! Public sector workers feeling some pain just like everyone else, for a change. All in it together etc.
 
Chippy_boy said:
At the risk of repeating myself, also, in normal walks of life and employer will say "Sorry <workforce< but the figures this year are not good and you're not getting a payrise. Why this is unthinkable in the public sector, I don't know.

Worse, in the private sector, they might also say "And 10% of you are being made redundant". Doctors don't have to worry about that either.

Honest to god, if I had my career choices all over again, I'd choose the public sector for sure. People rarely get sacked, they earn very good money, get more holidays, get great pensions and get to retire early. And get to moan incessantly about hard done by they are. Oh, and get MBE's and OBE's thrown in as well.
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Worth repeating something I posted several weeks ago on Private v Public sector.

My sister recently took a pay off from her company ( acrimoniously as is so often the way in the private sector as you approach 60) after a good, well paid career . She is a very able senior manager. She is financially secure and could retire but didn't feel ready so looked for some part-time work. Took a part time fixed contract position with her local NHS trust in a team looking to improve service delivery, job is talking to stakeholders etc, formulating plans etc .
She imagined the culture would be different from what she is used to and in that regard she hasn't been disappointed....
A few weeks in she was invited to a Team event held a nice local hotel. Spent the day on A " Bridgerton" themed day, making period costumes and then had the opportunity to spend time with a therapy dog to relieve her stress.Now its fair to say these sort of things also happen in the private sector , however what my sister has already learnt was that there was no need for a therapy dog - because there is no stress !
She says there is no jeopardy of losing your job , you would have to kill someone. What for her are the usual rules of do what your paid to do or be fired just doesn't exist.
The ethos apparently is to " Be kind" to one another and it seems that takes precedence over everything else.
No one on her team works full time, all are part time, those who started as full time reduced their hours. Add in to that almost total freedom to work from home as you see fit and the result is that nobody is hardly ever available when you need to speak to them, so everything proceeds at a sclerotic pace .Nothing is done within timeframes, deadlines come and go, every excuse is accepted.Everyone looks busy because everything is a priority, there is no focus.
Her boss recognises her experience and keeps asking for her to give feedback on the efficiency of the team. my sister just avoids it as she says there would be no way of telling her without breaking the relationship because she says the truth is the whole set up actually just functions to provide comfortable employment for its participants and if the whole thing was wound up tomorrow and the team made redundant , it would make no meaningful difference whatsoever. Sadly , she says that they simply would not recognise that fact, they don't get it.
They are not facing any cuts it would seem.
To hear that frontline staff are facing redundancy when this is going on ... shocking.
 
Chippy_boy said:
Excellent wasn't it! Public sector workers feeling some pain just like everyone else, for a change. All in it together etc.
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It led to wide spread strikes and paralysis of the health and transport sectors and adversely impacting the economy - if people can't get heath fixes or even get to work thats what happens.

Over that perios I did OK - I worked in the private sector got decent pay rises and because I worked in companies where the workforce was organised I did OK pension wise OK so I was able to retire at 60.

Under the Tories there was a 2 tier rewards system and that resulted in industrial action that paralysed their chance because they refused to talk to anyone. From the French and the boats to labour they controlled they adopted a "oir way or the highway" approach and thats why they got nowhere.

Personally if I am doing well enough I don't see why its somehow a badge of honour to have public servants not do as well too. Why would you want that self flagellation - "I am knocking it out in IT sales but my bin man can fuck off" - all that leaves you with is a strike and overflowing bins.
 
Chippy_boy said:
One word: Nonsense.
You cannot possibly be that dim. Surely this is a wind up?
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Are you under the impression the Tories fight for workers rights, better pay and conditions?

Personally, I seem to recall them banging on about lazy British workers, lack of productivity, hamstringing Unions and warning about excessive pay awards.

Maybe you were too busy working all hours for no pay increases to notice.
 
Hertzblue said:
Worth repeating something I posted several weeks ago on Private v Public sector.

My sister recently took a pay off from her company ( acrimoniously as is so often the way in the private sector as you approach 60) after a good, well paid career . She is a very able senior manager. She is financially secure and could retire but didn't feel ready so looked for some part-time work. Took a part time fixed contract position with her local NHS trust in a team looking to improve service delivery, job is talking to stakeholders etc, formulating plans etc .
She imagined the culture would be different from what she is used to and in that regard she hasn't been disappointed....
A few weeks in she was invited to a Team event held a nice local hotel. Spent the day on A " Bridgerton" themed day, making period costumes and then had the opportunity to spend time with a therapy dog to relieve her stress.Now its fair to say these sort of things also happen in the private sector , however what my sister has already learnt was that there was no need for a therapy dog - because there is no stress !
She says there is no jeopardy of losing your job , you would have to kill someone. What for her are the usual rules of do what your paid to do or be fired just doesn't exist.
The ethos apparently is to " Be kind" to one another and it seems that takes precedence over everything else.
No one on her team works full time, all are part time, those who started as full time reduced their hours. Add in to that almost total freedom to work from home as you see fit and the result is that nobody is hardly ever available when you need to speak to them, so everything proceeds at a sclerotic pace .Nothing is done within timeframes, deadlines come and go, every excuse is accepted.Everyone looks busy because everything is a priority, there is no focus.
Her boss recognises her experience and keeps asking for her to give feedback on the efficiency of the team. my sister just avoids it as she says there would be no way of telling her without breaking the relationship because she says the truth is the whole set up actually just functions to provide comfortable employment for its participants and if the whole thing was wound up tomorrow and the team made redundant , it would make no meaningful difference whatsoever. Sadly , she says that they simply would not recognise that fact, they don't get it.
They are not facing any cuts it would seem.
To hear that frontline staff are facing redundancy when this is going on ... shocking.
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So, your sister works part time, refuses to give feedback when requested by management and is happily taking tax payer money for doing a non-existent job?

I hope you had words and pointed out this is totally unacceptable.
 
BobKowalski said:
Tories believe in making people poorer. Public sector wages, private sector wages, no minimum wage legislation- the Tories literally prefer to see people earn less.

This in turn, weakens the economy as people have less disposable income and thus spend less and buy less etc etc.

The Tories ideal worker is someone who does not expect to get an annual pay rise nor believe he should get a pay rise and will happily accept an occasional bone of a pay rise in line with the cost of living.

And that worker (poor sap) will happily vote Tory.
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Always amazes me how people will vote against their instinct. That post basically admits that their life would’ve been better off without the Tories in power, yet argues the toss for anything other than Labour.
 
Chippy_boy said:
None of them are employed by the public sector. They all work for SITA or similar.
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Sorry, are you saying refuse collectors don’t work for the public sector?

In Greater Manchester the majority are employed by the councils for household waste

Some councils use private firms to assist in collections.
 
Chippy_boy said:
You are seriously moaning that they "only" have a basic paid as little as £62k before add-ons - realistically £80k to £100k. Seriously??? Wow.
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Yes I am. 10 years in and getting less than 2 x the average salary. It's supply and demand. What would you pay them?
 
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