The Same Old Traps

Marvin said:
Dortmund won two successive League titles, and last season they were as poor as we are now in Europe yet domestically they were far better than Bayern Munich. Perhaps it's beyond understanding. I am confused. But it would not be a shock to me if Mancini was sacked. City were a shambles in midweek and the manager said he had not prepared the team properly - evidently he did not. For the manager of the most ambitious club in Europe he should be Very careful what he says and does.

I think "I did not prepare the team properly" is Mancini speak for "the players let me down". Mancini makes mistakes and made some against Ajax but I happen to think individual player errors were far more to blame than Mancini's tactics or anything else Bobby did or did not do in respect of Wednesday's game. However, it is Mancini's job to get the players to perform at a consistently high standard at home and abroad so he can only afford so many bad days.
 
OB1 said:
Marvin said:
Dortmund won two successive League titles, and last season they were as poor as we are now in Europe yet domestically they were far better than Bayern Munich. Perhaps it's beyond understanding. I am confused. But it would not be a shock to me if Mancini was sacked. City were a shambles in midweek and the manager said he had not prepared the team properly - evidently he did not. For the manager of the most ambitious club in Europe he should be Very careful what he says and does.

I think "I did not prepare the team properly" is Mancini speak for "the players let me down". Mancini makes mistakes and made some against Ajax but I happen to think individual player errors were far more to blame than Mancini's tactics or anything else Bobby did or did not do in respect of Wednesday's game. However, it is Mancini's job to get the players to perform at a consistently high standard at home and abroad so he can only afford so many bad days.


I think "I did not prepare the team properly" means i didnt work them hard enough,but will do next time,in other words beast them proper.
 
Goo said:
I have been avoiding this board since the Ajax loss, but since returning I am not surprised one bit to see us falling into the same old traps that we always do after a loss. The media cracks the 'blame game' whip and we all march in line. It really is astonishing for a group of fans to be so conscious of the way the media works one day, and the next day to then lead the line of dissent conducted by the tabloid press.

The Mancini outer's have been out en masse since the final whistle in Amsterdam and it felt like the posts were already written in anticipation.

European football isn't something that the bank balance can govern. That just helps you on your way. The time necessary to bring a club from regular entrants to the Champions League, to regular knock out places is vast. I'm sure a few statistical boffins could come up with a few outliers, but the fact remains that throughout history, English clubs have taken a very long time to come to terms with the rigors of European football. We have a manger who has won us the FA Cup and the league title in the last two years. Remind me how long it took Ferguson to win anything at Old Trafford? Well it was 6 years. It also took him a fair chunk of time to be able to show any convincing upward trajectory in Europe. Wenger can also be used for historical reference. One of the best managers in the premier league era and still not one the Champions League. That says far more about the Champions League than Arsene Wenger, that's for sure. Finally, the last yard stick I'll use is Chelsea. The never ending changing of managers, high player turnover, and like us, millions of pounds pumped into winning the competition and they needed all the luck in the world to finally clinch it almost a decade after his project began. 6th in the league, yet champions of Europe.

Why can't that be us? Well it would start if we were seeding in pot 1. In our maiden season in the champions league we were seeded to fail. I know that imbalance of fairness can be broken from time to time, but it's still worth noting it's existence. This season we've been in pot two yet had a group that makes us look like pot 3 once again. Dortmund, Read, and Ajax are our current group and we're expected to do just as well as a team handed Cluj, Galatasaray, and Braga. Just because we don't hear Dortmund's name when the biggest clubs in Europe are mentioned (AC, Inter, Barca, Real, Bayern, etc) doesn't mean they're mugs for the taking. Last night when we were all sulking over a defeat, Dortmund were celebrating beating Real Madrid. That's a big deal when you consider Real's players, manager, and Champions League experience. Ajax nearly held the same team to a draw in Amsterdam. We're not playing poor teams by any stretch of the imagination. I firmly believe that you need three things to do well in the Champions League; Top quality players/Top quality manager/Top quality experience of playing together. We have the first two. The third is in the process of being secured.

Mancini is a great manager. Deep down we all know it, but the slow dripping of media-conjured doubt over his job makes everyone shake like a shitting dog with fear that he might not be the man. The only managers who have won the Champions League in such a short time are managers who have inherited the first and final necessities I mentioned above, and have themselves been the second requirement. Mancini is the second, but inherited none of the others. There is an argument he initially had some quality players, but mostly not CL quality. Now we have the players, the manager, and we're just waiting on that elusive experience. We need time to develop as a team, as players, and as a club. With that in mind we should all be saying "Fuck it, I can see the bigger picture here"

I've also noticed that even the new signings are getting it in the neck. Hardly any of them have even featured yet. Again if we look at the history we know it takes some players (if not most players) months to get into the rhythm of their new team, why should this lot be any different? I distinctly remember the resident flappers wishing we'd signed Van Der Vaart instead of Silva during his early days. Looking back that is sheer lunacy, and he's arguable our best player, not to mention one of the best attacking midfielders in the world! Same happened with Yaya when he first signed. Now he's widely regarded as the best midfielder in the league, and rightly so. Why should we expect Garcia to fire on all cylinders after one or two games? Sure that'd be lovely, but it's not realistic. Nastasic looks quality and young, just what we wanted instead of Savic. Sinclair is an as-good-as-version of Johnson, who is younger and seems very willing to learn. Again, exactly what we wanted from a young squad player. Maicon has vast experience, could make our first XI while also provides cover allowing Micah to move to centre back when needed, and hopefully will have a 'Vieira' effect on the younger players. Again, ticking important boxes. Finally Rodwell. A young promising player who with any luck will take over from Barry when he either moves on or hangs his boots. Last summer when he was rumored to join United, people were hailing him as the new Scholes. Be that prediction true or not, it just goes to show that he's rated very highly. Give the guys a chance. These transfers are not "baffling" or hard to understand in the slightest. They fulfill necessary roles in our team.

This club we all love is forever showing evidence that we're heading in the right direction since Mancini took over. Just because we hit a few stumbling blocks (namely in Europe) along the way is no reason to assume he's tactically inept! Short term evaluation is definitely the wrong way to go about assessing ones managerial credentials. That's been proven to us time and time again.

"There is nothing new in the world except the history you do not know." - Harry S. Truman


DISCLAIMER: Before anyone decides to bite my head off, this is all my opinion of course, as always :)


Nice one. Couldn't agree more mate - very well put.
 
OB1 said:
Marvin said:
Cobwebcat said:
My point is that isolating European results is no guide to how good a manager is. Location of the opposition is not important just the strength. See my earlier post:

This is what counts:

<a class="postlink" href="http://clubelo.com/ManCity/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://clubelo.com/ManCity/</a>

and its based on all results. Focusing in on Europe makes as much sense as focusing in on London.

Any criticism of Mancini that starts with "In Europe" is nonsense and they are all over this board.

Tell me this: Why does it matter where a team comes from?

There is no meaningful "European record" You might as well isolate Mancini's record against Merseyside teams as an example of something.

There is only one record that counts and that is Mancini's overall record against ALL teams including Chelsea, Liverpool, Ajax....wherever.

The destination means fuck all. There are good teams and bad teams all over the World unless we are saying a victory against Malmo counts more than 1-6 at the swamp?

Your looking at a subset of results based on location to prove a non-existant point.

Mightly pissed off today with some blues who have used a subset of results to support getting rid of Mancini.
So why do we consistently struggle in Europe then? If football is homogeneous then you'd expect City to succeed in Europe as well.

Football isn't homogeneous and playing in European is markedly different to playing in the EPL; although I'd have said less so to Serie A. However, whether or not these differences show up deficiencies in Mancini's management, or whether or not it is unfair to isolate his European form as a barometer of his ability, does not change the fact that winning the UCL is probably a matter of importance to his employers.

For now, the EPL remains the priority, by a distance, as far as I am concerned.


What do you mean playing in Europe is different? We are part of Europe. Do you mean Norway? Malta? How are Ajax so different from Arsenal? The location of a team is irrelevant.

Now if you mean the standard of the CL is on average higher than the Premier League then I agree with you and that's why we aren't tearing it up yet. The solution is not to start sacking people but to be patient. If we had a CL group featuring Chelsea Arsenal and the rags there is no guarantee we would get out of that either. It's not where the team comes from but how good they are and our group is very strong. That's why I say beating United 6-1 is every bit as impressive as beating a top European team and you can't isolate the results to decide if Mancini is any good.
 
Cobwebcat said:
What do you mean playing in Europe is different? We are part of Europe. Do you mean Norway? Malta? How are Ajax so different from Arsenal? The location of a team is irrelevant.

Now if you mean the standard of the CL is on average higher than the Premier League then I agree with you and that's why we aren't tearing it up yet. The solution is not to start sacking people but to be patient. If we had a CL group featuring Chelsea Arsenal and the rags there is no guarantee we would get out of that either. It's not where the team comes from but how good they are and our group is very strong. That's why I say beating United 6-1 is every bit as impressive as beating a top European team and you can't isolate the results to decide if Mancini is any good.

Europe: short for European competition i.e. UEFA tournaments. The point is that some people think these tournaments are important and failure to succeed in them has been known to cost mangers their jobs, including Mancini at Inter, so saying you can't isolate these performances... may not cut any ice with the decision makers at City.
 
Truely ashamed of some of the knee jerk doubters on here ! How far have City progressed under bobby manc ? We are on another planet and champions of England ffs ....... get a grip everyone we arent even out of the CL yet ffs !
 
OB1 said:
Cobwebcat said:
What do you mean playing in Europe is different? We are part of Europe. Do you mean Norway? Malta? How are Ajax so different from Arsenal? The location of a team is irrelevant.

Now if you mean the standard of the CL is on average higher than the Premier League then I agree with you and that's why we aren't tearing it up yet. The solution is not to start sacking people but to be patient. If we had a CL group featuring Chelsea Arsenal and the rags there is no guarantee we would get out of that either. It's not where the team comes from but how good they are and our group is very strong. That's why I say beating United 6-1 is every bit as impressive as beating a top European team and you can't isolate the results to decide if Mancini is any good.

Europe: short for European competition i.e. UEFA tournaments. The point is that some people think these tournaments are important and failure to succeed in them has been known to cost mangers their jobs, including Mancini at Inter, so saying you can't isolate these performances... may not cut any ice with the decision makers at City.

You really think we would give him a 4 year contract and sack him so soon? Thankfully the decision makers are a wise bunch who employed him in the first place.

Who are you suggesting we get and what if he wins neither the Prem or the CL? Sack him too? What is acceptable to you? How long has he got?

The CL is very important but it takes time. The players and manager will get there and then the anti Mancini posters will disappear just as they did when we won the Prem after most said we never would. Mancini's overall record even accounting for money spent is astonishingly good. The fact this is even up for debate is embarrassing.
 

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