United Thread 2014/15 (continued)

[mac]

Our little rag seems to quote la liga as why ffp is a winner. Well me old mucker the top 2 have been taking virtually all the tv rights money, so was that fair for the other clubs. Hopefully the tide is turning here in Spain but the damage has been done by the cartel.

 

[redmanc34]

Oh, silly me - I must've missed Southampton smashing the top 4 cartel in the past few seasons and winning a couple of league titles and a domestic trophy or two.

Just like investment though it takes time. I thought you lads were educated about football? Montpellier won the French League without spending a shiteload, Mainz finished in the top 6 of the Bundesliga last year, and Augsburg looking likely to this year. Yet the 'Cartel Clubs' of Hamburg and Stuttgart might get relegated. Villarreal still consistently punch above their weight. Your bot Pellegrini took them to 2nd and the semi's of the CL. Athletic Bilbao get into Europe every season with a sqaud that is about 70% academy graduates. Malaga have also broke into the top 6, that was without the Al-Thani money. Atletico Madrid won the league through good coaching and recruitment, as they have nowhere near the amounts of money that Barca and Real Madrid do. It took Simeone a few years of hard graft though

Do you seriously think Saints are ever going to win the Premier League without spending a shit load of money of players? Montpellier is a poor example - great achievement but the French league is a far more level playing field than the Premier League. Atletico Madrid - fanatstic what they've done but they're the 3rd biggest team in Spain and won't be able to compete long-term with the riches of Barca and Real. Hamburg and Stuttgart are not members of the G14/G18 cartel so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about there. What I do know is that you're basically saying any club that isn't a true giant in the game in the present day has no fucking right to invest an owner's money to help them grow and compete with the best, and we should all find another way instead. For those very few clubs you've mentioned there are hundreds of well run clubs across Europe that have got no chance of ever seeing sustained success and that in itself is proof that you're talking complete and utter bollocks. If you were that arsed about inequality in football you'd be happy to see United share some of their wealth across the league.

Potentially, but as I said, it's not gonna be immediate. It's also debatable whether Atletico are the third biggest club in Spain, Athletic Bilbao, Sevilla, Valencia, and Real Betis all have the same amount of registered members and season ticket holders. Atletico have the advantage of being from the capital.
With regards to the Montpellier example then, surely PSG now having outside investment is actually detrimental to their league. You said yourself it is a far more level playing field, but PSG having the backing they do/did completely annihalates that and essentially makes it a one horse race. So in that instance wouldn't FFP actually make sense?

That final point. You hit the fucking nail on the head and I actually agree completely, United could do more, but so could City. I grew up playing amateur grass roots around Greater Manchester, played in the Tameside League, The Reddish & District League and the Altrincham & Timperely League. Clubs like United and City could and probably should run those leagues for me, and invest in grass roots around Manchester. Think about it, in those leagues you play on shitty pitches that are basically mud. Kids can never develop their skills properly in that environment and that is why we have to purchase lads from Spain and have so much foreign investment to compete, as the rest of Europe are miles ahead technically. The amount of money United and City have between them they could actually build 4G pitches and organise and run these leagues, they could also help the coaches of the sides improve their skills by maybe giving grants so they can achieve at least a UEFA B licence (which in Spain and Germany is a minimum to cach any level of football) which would benefit everyone. Both clubs then could essentially have their pick of the best lads and take them to their clubs. If you do that and get 7-8 very good players who are local, then why would City need to spend mental money on foreign players? They wouldn't. That would allow your club to grow. It also increases the general standard of grass roots amateur football all across Manchester. So if there's lads who aren't deemed good enough for United and City, then Bolton, Wigan, Oldham etc will have the pick. And the whole region benefits from the actions of those 2 clubs investing in that.

You might think it's bollocks cos you might believe that kids are made when they get to an academy, but if you say the standard of grassroots is average, and then academies take players and make them good. Surely if you invest in grassroots the standard of grassroots could be good, and then academies would take players and make them exceptional if that makes sense. It's a long term plan and might sound like a roundabout way to get there, but to me that would be spreading the wealth, and everyone would benefit.

 

[Maly]

Do you think that's why FFP is about. Jesus christ. You realise 24 Spanish clubs nearly went into liquidation because their expenses outweighed their income as they were all pursuing European football, or La Liga football. So do you think FIFA and UEFA would be more bothered about trying to maintain a professional league structure in places like Spain, or stopping City from doing whatever it is you're doing, and you say United fans are self absorbed. The new TV deal will put you on par with every other English club in the transfer market, and will put the top 4 Premier League clubs in a position to spend more than all the clubs in Spain, Portugal, Italy, Germany etc. So when English clubs are still struggling in Europe even though everything is in our favour, are you still gonna play the FFP card?

So Ragmanc, can you please enlighten us as to why FFP in it's current form was brought in & what makes it 'fair'?

If you seriously think it was for any reason other than to protect the cosy cartel, I look forward to hearing your comedy gold reasons.

Cheers for posting on BM by the way, I think you've brought a smile to a lot of blues faces. Keep on posting fella, really enjoying reading your posts

I just would love to know who is in this Cartel? As that's comedy gold. Is it Champions League winners, finalists, European Cup Finalists and winners. UEFA Cup and Europe League finalists and winners? Whats the conditions you need to be in this cartel.

And anyway, why are you bothered about FFP, as I said, with the new TV deal, you'll be rolling in the dough. You'll have more disposable income than Porto, Shakhtar, Valencia, Bayern, possibly even Barcelona and Real Madrid. So I just wanna know your excuse next season when you don't win the Champions League. It's easier to blame it on FFP, and United corrupting football than actually look at your own 'poor recruitment' as i've seen on this forum or your players 'lack of motivation'

Why am I bothered about FFP? Is that a serious question?

I understand you're a rag & therefore have a divine right to win everything at any cost, but for me my little rag friend, regardless of FFP protecting City's place at the top table, FFP will be the death of football as it will kill competition in football, which I'm guessing you want to preserve your lot being successful forever. Feel sorry for you in all fairness pal. As long as nited win, that's all that matters eh?

You were obviously very happy when it was you & the Tarquin's in a 2 horse race every year, me, I'd prefer more competition, with more big investors coming in to challenge for the title.

Portsmouth would've passed FFP so how the fuck does it protect clubs? How's it fair?

 

[redmanc34]

Just like investment though it takes time. I thought you lads were educated about football? Montpellier won the French League without spending a shiteload, Mainz finished in the top 6 of the Bundesliga last year, and Augsburg looking likely to this year. Yet the 'Cartel Clubs' of Hamburg and Stuttgart might get relegated. Villarreal still consistently punch above their weight. Your bot Pellegrini took them to 2nd and the semi's of the CL. Athletic Bilbao get into Europe every season with a sqaud that is about 70% academy graduates. Malaga have also broke into the top 6, that was without the Al-Thani money. Atletico Madrid won the league through good coaching and recruitment, as they have nowhere near the amounts of money that Barca and Real Madrid do. It took Simeone a few years of hard graft though

Do you seriously think Saints are ever going to win the Premier League without spending a shit load of money of players? Montpellier is a poor example - great achievement but the French league is a far more level playing field than the Premier League. Atletico Madrid - fanatstic what they've done but they're the 3rd biggest team in Spain and won't be able to compete long-term with the riches of Barca and Real. Hamburg and Stuttgart are not members of the G14/G18 cartel so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about there. What I do know is that you're basically saying any club that isn't a true giant in the game in the present day has no fucking right to invest an owner's money to help them grow and compete with the best, and we should all find another way instead. For those very few clubs you've mentioned there are hundreds of well run clubs across Europe that have got no chance of ever seeing sustained success and that in itself is proof that you're talking complete and utter bollocks. If you were that arsed about inequality in football you'd be happy to see United share some of their wealth across the league.

He's full of shit, no account taken for the fact that Markus Liebherr a Swiss billionaire bankrolled the Saints back to the Prem, he took them out of administration, they outspent everyone when in league 1, had the biggest squad and then invested in the first team again when they were in the Championship, whilst also investing in their youth system. Without him they would be nowhere near where they are today, good luck to them, I hope they continue to punch above their weight in the PL, however without significant investment in the first team, they wont break into the top 4 teams. Under the current FFP regulations I doubt Southampton would have been able to invest as much as they did, which is ironic that the thick rag is using them as an example for 'doing it right'.

I am aware of that and FFP allows a certain amount of injection by the board to meet running costs, What he did Southampton would have still passed from the amount he invested

 

[redmanc34]

Our little rag seems to quote la liga as why ffp is a winner. Well me old mucker the top 2 have been taking virtually all the tv rights money, so was that fair for the other clubs. Hopefully the tide is turning here in Spain but the damage has been done by the cartel.

What has Spanish clubs negotiating their own TV rights got to do with FFP. That's something La Liga allow, whereas here we get a deal for the league and divide it out. Nothing at all to do with FFP. I remember when Malaga went compeletely out of business and had to reform with the fans money. See Al-Thani has pulled out of funding them now, but if FFP wasn't there, that probably would have happened again. Due to FFP, they got a UEFA ban, but have managed to balance the books, they're producing some very good players as well from the academy. Isco, although he's been sold, Jesus Gamez who is now at Atletico. And Juanmi, 19 years old, already in the Spain squad. Also lads like Recio and Samu Castillejo

 

[Paul Lake's Left Knee]

Do you seriously think Saints are ever going to win the Premier League without spending a shit load of money of players? Montpellier is a poor example - great achievement but the French league is a far more level playing field than the Premier League. Atletico Madrid - fanatstic what they've done but they're the 3rd biggest team in Spain and won't be able to compete long-term with the riches of Barca and Real. Hamburg and Stuttgart are not members of the G14/G18 cartel so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about there. What I do know is that you're basically saying any club that isn't a true giant in the game in the present day has no fucking right to invest an owner's money to help them grow and compete with the best, and we should all find another way instead. For those very few clubs you've mentioned there are hundreds of well run clubs across Europe that have got no chance of ever seeing sustained success and that in itself is proof that you're talking complete and utter bollocks. If you were that arsed about inequality in football you'd be happy to see United share some of their wealth across the league.

He's full of shit, no account taken for the fact that Markus Liebherr a Swiss billionaire bankrolled the Saints back to the Prem, he took them out of administration, they outspent everyone when in league 1, had the biggest squad and then invested in the first team again when they were in the Championship, whilst also investing in their youth system. Without him they would be nowhere near where they are today, good luck to them, I hope they continue to punch above their weight in the PL, however without significant investment in the first team, they wont break into the top 4 teams. Under the current FFP regulations I doubt Southampton would have been able to invest as much as they did, which is ironic that the thick rag is using them as an example for 'doing it right'.

I am aware of that and FFP allows a certain amount of injection by the board to meet running costs, What he did Southampton would have still passed from the amount he invested

You held the Saints up as some sort a paragon of virtue and yet they were bankrolled by a billionaire, without him they wouldnt be in the Prem. As i said in a previous post most lower league sides can either invest in the first team or their youth system, unless they have a lot of outside investment, they cant do both. So the example you gave, not us, of Southampton, wouldnt have been possible without a sugar daddy's investment not as you stated by using money from parachute payments, sponsorship and TV rights to set up an academy. The money they got from the sources you mentioned, wasnt enough to prevent them getting relegated into league 1 and going into administration. You really are making it up as you go along.

 

[Bodicoteblue]

Just like investment though it takes time. I thought you lads were educated about football? Montpellier won the French League without spending a shiteload, Mainz finished in the top 6 of the Bundesliga last year, and Augsburg looking likely to this year. Yet the 'Cartel Clubs' of Hamburg and Stuttgart might get relegated. Villarreal still consistently punch above their weight. Your bot Pellegrini took them to 2nd and the semi's of the CL. Athletic Bilbao get into Europe every season with a sqaud that is about 70% academy graduates. Malaga have also broke into the top 6, that was without the Al-Thani money. Atletico Madrid won the league through good coaching and recruitment, as they have nowhere near the amounts of money that Barca and Real Madrid do. It took Simeone a few years of hard graft though

Do you seriously think Saints are ever going to win the Premier League without spending a shit load of money of players? Montpellier is a poor example - great achievement but the French league is a far more level playing field than the Premier League. Atletico Madrid - fanatstic what they've done but they're the 3rd biggest team in Spain and won't be able to compete long-term with the riches of Barca and Real. Hamburg and Stuttgart are not members of the G14/G18 cartel so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about there. What I do know is that you're basically saying any club that isn't a true giant in the game in the present day has no fucking right to invest an owner's money to help them grow and compete with the best, and we should all find another way instead. For those very few clubs you've mentioned there are hundreds of well run clubs across Europe that have got no chance of ever seeing sustained success and that in itself is proof that you're talking complete and utter bollocks. If you were that arsed about inequality in football you'd be happy to see United share some of their wealth across the league.

He's full of shit, no account taken for the fact that Markus Liebherr a Swiss billionaire bankrolled the Saints back to the Prem, he took them out of administration, they outspent everyone when in league 1, had the biggest squad and then invested in the first team again when they were in the Championship, whilst also investing in their youth system. Without him they would be nowhere near where they are today, good luck to them, I hope they continue to punch above their weight in the PL, however without significant investment in the first team, they wont break into the top 4 teams. Under the current FFP regulations I doubt Southampton would have been able to invest as much as they did, which is ironic that the thick rag is using them as an example for 'doing it right'.

Just this.
Southampton , as he points out are a "mid -sized " club with average 33,000 crowd , so therefore their revenue streams , which FFP dictates they must spend within, are not that big. They cannot attract the kind of sponsorship deals that regular CL participants can , and their gate receipts are not huge.
This leaves a very important stream for them- selling off their best players to the big clubs ( and I include City in that group , even though we haven't actually bought anyone from them) who come calling with their almost unrestricted spending - protected by FFP .
They lost a whole swathe of top class players last summer and did a good job this season in replacing them , but how long can they be expected to run a very successful academy for the benefit of arsenal and the rags? Eventually the well will run dry.
Because of FFP they have to sell players to clubs whose spending is protected by FFP, and know that they will never get to the title or the CL.
Seems fair.

 

[redmanc34]

He's full of shit, no account taken for the fact that Markus Liebherr a Swiss billionaire bankrolled the Saints back to the Prem, he took them out of administration, they outspent everyone when in league 1, had the biggest squad and then invested in the first team again when they were in the Championship, whilst also investing in their youth system. Without him they would be nowhere near where they are today, good luck to them, I hope they continue to punch above their weight in the PL, however without significant investment in the first team, they wont break into the top 4 teams. Under the current FFP regulations I doubt Southampton would have been able to invest as much as they did, which is ironic that the thick rag is using them as an example for 'doing it right'.

I am aware of that and FFP allows a certain amount of injection by the board to meet running costs, What he did Southampton would have still passed from the amount he invested

You held the Saints up as some sort a paragon of virtue and yet they were bankrolled by a billionaire, without him they wouldnt be in the Prem. As i said in a previous post most lower league sides can either invest in the first team or their youth system, unless they have a lot of outside investment, they cant do both. So the example you gave, not us, of Southampton, wouldnt have been possible without a sugar daddy's investment not as you stated by using money from parachute payments, sponsorship and TV rights to set up an academy. The money they got from the sources you mentioned, wasnt enough to prevent them getting relegated into league 1 and going into administration. You really are making it up as you go along.

Not really. They probably would. He invested £75m over 5 years, you can look that up.Thats well within the FFP guidelines. £15m a season of his own money is fine. So FFP wouldn't have been an issue at all.

 

[Dicko69]

If ffp stays as it is right now, I'd be willing to bet everything I own including the clothes I've got on and all future earnings that no team outside the current top 5 will win the prem in my lifetime. Doesn't sound very fair to me. Let's face it, if it wasn't for our owners I would of prob lived my entire life without seeing city win a trophy. I was born in December 76, I was 35 when we won fa cup. it's possible we might of won a cup one day, but a league title? No chance. If villa don't beat arsenal, what are the chances of winning a trophy in a lot of their supporters lifetimes? Slim. What are villas chances of winning the league ever again? Zero.

 

[redmanc34]

Do you seriously think Saints are ever going to win the Premier League without spending a shit load of money of players? Montpellier is a poor example - great achievement but the French league is a far more level playing field than the Premier League. Atletico Madrid - fanatstic what they've done but they're the 3rd biggest team in Spain and won't be able to compete long-term with the riches of Barca and Real. Hamburg and Stuttgart are not members of the G14/G18 cartel so I don't know what the fuck you're going on about there. What I do know is that you're basically saying any club that isn't a true giant in the game in the present day has no fucking right to invest an owner's money to help them grow and compete with the best, and we should all find another way instead. For those very few clubs you've mentioned there are hundreds of well run clubs across Europe that have got no chance of ever seeing sustained success and that in itself is proof that you're talking complete and utter bollocks. If you were that arsed about inequality in football you'd be happy to see United share some of their wealth across the league.

He's full of shit, no account taken for the fact that Markus Liebherr a Swiss billionaire bankrolled the Saints back to the Prem, he took them out of administration, they outspent everyone when in league 1, had the biggest squad and then invested in the first team again when they were in the Championship, whilst also investing in their youth system. Without him they would be nowhere near where they are today, good luck to them, I hope they continue to punch above their weight in the PL, however without significant investment in the first team, they wont break into the top 4 teams. Under the current FFP regulations I doubt Southampton would have been able to invest as much as they did, which is ironic that the thick rag is using them as an example for 'doing it right'.

Just this.
Southampton , as he points out are a "mid -sized " club with average 33,000 crowd , so therefore their revenue streams , which FFP dictates they must spend within, are not that big. They cannot attract the kind of sponsorship deals that regular CL participants can , and their gate receipts are not huge.
This leaves a very important stream for them- selling off their best players to the big clubs ( and I include City in that group , even though we haven't actually bought anyone from them) who come calling with their almost unrestricted spending - protected by FFP .
They lost a whole swathe of top class players last summer and did a good job this season in replacing them , but how long can they be expected to run a very successful academy for the benefit of arsenal and the rags? Eventually the well will run dry.
Because of FFP they have to sell players to clubs whose spending is protected by FFP, and know that they will never get to the title or the CL.
Seems fair.

I think a club like that could get to the Champions League though, and then from that you can build yourself up a lot more. To be honest, with outside investment and all that there can only be one winner of the title. And there's a limited amount of trophies to be won. Most fans know that and they support their team regardless because of a sense of pride they have in their local community, and they wanna be entertained, and just see their teams progress. I haven't met one Burnley fan yet kicking off because they won't win the Premier League, there's what 3/4 teams kicking off about FFP from i've read here, and thats Everton, Villa and City. It doesn't exactly stifle competition as there can be one winner anyway, and unless you turn the league into some kind of American style competition with a salary cap and draft, then there will always be a pecking order, with or without FFP.