Var debate 2019/20

lasereyes said:
OK good - so we agree that during 2 separate years - 1 CL tie and 1 entire season, Liverpool were grossly favoured. Now it could just be coincidence. But it's a pretty big dataset, so surely you would have to agree there is some chance that there was systematic bias?

If that is the case, why is it so far-fetched to think that there is some systematic bias in the implementation of VAR (in addition to a liberal dollop of incompetence).
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... systematic bias by whom? SKY? PGMOL? the F.A.? UEFA? the media? All have been quoted as being implemented at one stage or another, yet it was the majority of Premier League clubs that voted VAR in. And to dismiss my suggestion that all teams can point to desicions going unfairly for or against does not rule it out of the equation, it just helps support your argument if it is ignored. I have already stated, numerous times, that I agree that VAR can be used corruptly - indeed, so far there have been some seriously dubious errors, but not to the sole benefit of Liverpool, or Man Utd, and not to the sole detriment of Man City, and that is my stance - VAR needs to be more transparent - the idea offered by many that we can hear the conversations between ref and monitor is crucial - the groundswell of commentators / pundits calling out VAR will increase that pressure for transparency, as will forums like this. Surely this level of ineptitude cannot be allowed to continue when the overwhelming voice is one ranging from disbelief to out and out rage ...
 
its grim up north said:
So a football team turning up to a football match in an official vehicle is disturbing a hornets nest? Mods get rid please.
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... happy to go - but again, you have taken the metaphor out of context, so one more time, just for you - metaphor equates to me (stung) - Blue Moon (hornets nest) - get it?
 
Presse said:
indeed, so far there have been some seriously dubious errors, but not to the sole benefit of Liverpool, or Man Utd, and not to the sole detriment of Man City
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WTF
How many teams have had a goal disallowed for a supposed hand ball? I'll answer it for you, two. Ironic that the Newcastle goal that was allowed happened after the city one was disallowed. I feel sorry for wolves. If that incident happened now, after we have been fucked over, it would probably stand. I can't wait for Liverpool or United to be royally fucked over by VAR. Only then will things change. That said, I can't ever see the 'elite establishment' being fucked over by something poorly implemented to screw over the upstarts!
 
lasereyes said:
Sorry mate, you destroyed any vestiges of credibility with this gem
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Spuds lost 13 times in the league last season - hard to beat you say!
Presse said:
...in the context of the debate, it is a point about who benefits directly as opposed to who benefits indirectly - Spurs have benefited directly due to VAR intervention - Spurs, as we are both aware, are a tough team to beat and, apart from Arsenal, are probably most likely to pose any kind of threat to your title, considering you are in agreement that Liverpool will also pose a challenge - it is another perpsective on who challenges and, more to the point, where they end up at the end of the season - them gaining an additional point might not affect yourselves, might not affect Liverpool, but could play a part in a top four finish, for example - and this is the point I am trying to make, VAR has, and has the capacity to continue to affect the whole table, because, for me at least, VAR isn't just about Liverpool and City.
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Spuds lost 13 games last season in the league = hard to beat you say !!
 
Presse said:
...in the context of the debate, it is a point about who benefits directly as opposed to who benefits indirectly - Spurs have benefited directly due to VAR intervention - Spurs, as we are both aware, are a tough team to beat and, apart from Arsenal, are probably most likely to pose any kind of threat to your title, considering you are in agreement that Liverpool will also pose a challenge - it is another perpsective on who challenges and, more to the point, where they end up at the end of the season - them gaining an additional point might not affect yourselves, might not affect Liverpool, but could play a part in a top four finish, for example - and this is the point I am trying to make, VAR has, and has the capacity to continue to affect the whole table, because, for me at least, VAR isn't just about Liverpool and City.
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Only a scouser could construct a sentence that long and not be embarrassed. Just saying.
 
I think it's a bit of a strawman argument for @Presse to claim City fans think VAR was introduced as a measure to stop City running away with it.

Some simply believe there is a danger that it could be hijacked much the same way FFP was. Personally I think it's too soon to say and it's true they have made mistakes for other clubs but so far it does appear they are looking far more closely at City related incidents than any other top 6 club. That should not be happening in a system without bias.

The arguments Presse makes, sound much the same as those defending FFP, they harp on about the original goal it was sold on. When it's obvious what the aim is now.

It's much like politics, get the votes from the clubs, selling a certain idea(protecting small clubs from building up too much debt, getting the right decisions), one that's easy to sell. When all the while, their true(or perhaps secondary) objectives may be hidden because they know many wouldn't have signed off on it had they known about it. Then claim, ah but everybody wanted this and now everyone has to play by the same rules. In the case of FFP no they didn't, it was never supposed to be about stopping newly invested in clubs challenging the G14 clubs "thrones". Clubs who all enjoyed success/growth off the back of investment in their day.

The jury is out on VAR but so far there are a few signs that City more than any other top 6 club have not had their fair share of correct calls. Maybe it will even out and we can all relax but there still needs to be more transparency, something is very off about their excuses for not using the big screens at games, not letting us know who made what call. Leaving it to the broadcaster's pundits guessing in the studio, with an ex referee who defends every decision, is not good enough.

The lack of transparency is the most unsettling thing about VAR for me. Refs are hiding behind VAR when the wrong calls are still made and the pundits are defending VAR by placing responsibility on the refs but excusing them because of how it's been implemented. Someone has to take responsibility for the mistakes, all they are doing is finding ways to muddy the waters when something has gone wrong. All so that nobody has to take responsibility and possibly so that the "mistakes" will somehow be accepted as "just how it is".

Even if there hasn't been any corruption involved, everyone should be able to see that it's definitely open to it as things stand.

Personally I think if anyone stands to benifit from controlling a title race, it would be the broadcasters, who are no fans of City(when city fans are watching the games without commentary, there has to be something to it). They are the ones doing the job of appeasing the fans with excuses when VAR isn't doing things right, they love VAR despite what their pundits say(its good entertainment... for TV). They pay alot of money for sure but the PL doesn't belong to them, they inconvenience matchgoing fans all the time these days for that privilege. There needs to be measures guarding against them controlling the game because they are too powerful already.
 
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Presse said:
... sigh - was almost done here, but here I go again - it depends on how you look at it, doesn't it? I presume that your stance is that anything that hinders City benefits Liverpool, and this on the assumption that the League is a two horse race - but how about this - Spurs, who I have no doubt will be considering themselves to be contenders, are a point closer to Liverpool after the VAR fiasco, a ruling that could, over the course of the season, affect our final league position - just a perspective, another way of looking at it ...
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I'm not subscribing to an anti-City agenda specifically but there's no doubt that some particular teams are media darlings (justify today's Sky Sports headline where Klopp and Liverpools achievement last season is given greater prominence than City's - https://www.skysports.com/football/...e-club-styles-revealed-in-advanced-opta-stats Edit: They have changed the headline now which was originally "Who tries to play like Liverpool?" - espousing how Liverpool were leading the pack when the stats slearly showed different )
Hand on heart which was the greater achievement? An unprecedented domestic treble/quad over the term of the full season or a cup competition which is seeded by virtue of the draw {not unlike the way that the league cup pans out to be honest}. What would the media be saying if Liverpool had done the treble/quad? .... and if you don't think the same bias extends beyond the media into other areas then you are naive in the extreme. Come back in ten games time and let's see how things are shaping up then.
 
VAR stinks.
The total lack of visible process is one problem.
The fact that NOT ONE referee decision has been overturned in 40 games is another.
As a result it is corrupt.
Then there is the dreadful presentation to FA s in the stadia.

To correct this.
1. The on field officials and VAR official need to be miked up like rugby. There will then be nothing for referees to hide behind when bad decisions are made. We all know they can make mistakes, they need to admit it for VAR decisions to improve.
2. The decision point for offside decisions must be shown on the decision video (e.g. box in top left corner of the screen) and rerun for 5 frames before and 5 frames after so viewers can validate it.
3. The speed and direction of the attacker needs to be calculated and the distance run in 1 frame taken into account in the calculation of the offside line. It currently isn't.
4. The information provided to fans in the stadia needs to dramatically improve.
5. The new handball rule needs to change. It stinks.
 
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Bandofblues said:
I'm not subscribing to an anti-City agenda specifically but there's no doubt that some particular teams are media darlings (justify today's Sky Sports headline where Klopp and Liverpools achievement last season is given greater prominence than City's - https://www.skysports.com/football/...e-club-styles-revealed-in-advanced-opta-stats Edit: They have changed the headline now which was originally "Who tries to play like Liverpool?" - espousing how Liverpool were leading the pack when the stats slearly showed different )
Hand on heart which was the greater achievement? An unprecedented domestic treble/quad over the term of the full season or a cup competition which is seeded by virtue of the draw {not unlike the way that the league cup pans out to be honest}. What would the media be saying if Liverpool had done the treble/quad? .... and if you don't think the same bias extends beyond the media into other areas then you are naive in the extreme. Come back in ten games time and let's see how things are shaping up then.
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You ask hand on heart what it the best achievement, domestic dominance or a glorified cup run.. Let's not forget champions league should just be that.. for entry only for the champions of each european football team who won their respective leagues.. Liverpool haven't won the league for 29 going on 30 years, they're not even the best team in the northwest nevermind Europe (European Royalty - my backside) Spuds lat won it 58 years ago? The draw should just be that, an open draw, get drawn against proper teams instead of this seeded crap, then you can call yourself European Royalty.. Got to win your domestic league first though boys... It's a money spinning merry go round where certain teams seem to have the best seats.. That's how it looks to me but what do I know?
 
karen7 said:
A liverpool fan? no wonder you won't accept it
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There are Decent Dippers. Providing they are not being deluded or acting as WUMs like some of the Spuds, then reading alternative, factual, reasoned views can not be bad.
We all know about RAWK. I hope we never stoop to their ways. Yet, there are sensible Liverpudlians out there.
 
Bill the Blue said:
You ask hand on heart what it the best achievement, domestic dominance or a glorified cup run.. Let's not forget champions league should just be that.. for entry only for the champions of each european football team who won their respective leagues.. Liverpool haven't won the league for 29 going on 30 years, they're not even the best team in the northwest nevermind Europe (European Royalty - my backside) Spuds lat won it 58 years ago? The draw should just be that, an open draw, get drawn against proper teams instead of this seeded crap, then you can call yourself European Royalty.. Got to win your domestic league first though boys... It's a money spinning merry go round where certain teams seem to have the best seats.. That's how it looks to me but what do I know?
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When we won it in 2012 there was no doubt it was seen as a finer achievement than Chelsea grinding results all the way to Euro glory & they won the FA Cup as well.
 
cheekybids said:
When we won it in 2012 there was no doubt it was seen as a finer achievement than Chelsea grinding results all the way to Euro glory & they won the FA Cup as well.
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Chelsea don't play in red though .. plus I got the impression the establishment thought we'd be a bit of a one hit wonder.. I think it's dawning on them we're here for the long haul
 
Bill the Blue said:
Chelsea don't play in red though .. plus I got the impression the establishment thought we'd be a bit of a one hit wonder.. I think it's dawning on them we're here for the long haul
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Certainly the Cartel members were absolutely accurate in fearing our owners impact on their private football money machine.
Their worst fears are being realised and their best attempts to prevent then delay our owners business plan from taking shape were overcome.
 
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