VAR thread 2022/23

[bluenova]

RE this "tolerance" amendment - I have asked around about it and I have not found one person who knew about it. Personally the rashford goal was the first time I have heard it mentioned - make of that what you want.

It was announced before last season, and has been used multiple times since. Pretty sure someone said United have had two goals against them allowed because of it last season, so it's not biased towards them so far.

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

RE this "tolerance" amendment - I have asked around about it and I have not found one person who knew about it. Personally the rashford goal was the first time I have heard it mentioned - make of that what you want.

Ah, that's probably because Rashford scored it and he was wearing the Devil's kit! probably won't be heard of again, until he gets another 'toenailer'!

 

[moomba]

Would have been great for the TV to analyse the offside decision and explain why it was given rather than 2 seconds of footage, and a quick "onside, move on".

 

[Stephen230]

RE this "tolerance" amendment - I have asked around about it and I have not found one person who knew about it. Personally the rashford goal was the first time I have heard it mentioned - make of that what you want.

I’ll try and word this a bit more politely than I came across last time. But there were journalists on Twitter who discussed it at great length before the start of last season. I also remember it been discussed on one of those Sunday morning Sky Sports programmes. Just because you’re not aware of something it doesn’t automatically make it sinister.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I don't think there's human input into the actual decision. They can't choose to move a line, or make a decision on when the ball is moved.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, but do believe that bias (mostly unconscious) could affect decisions where the human has some control. To change this it would involve seeing a decision on screen and then not passing that on to the ref. That's an active decision clearly made in front of everyone with access to the feed, all the techs involved, everyone sitting in the VAR room, and would involve justifying after the match why no decision was made. That just isn't realistically going to happen.

With all the money swilling round in the game (legal/illegal gambling, sponsorship, prize money etc.) there will always be people willing to exploit the situation to satisfy their own greed. If there is a way to manipulate decisions for personal financial gain, somebody somewhere will have worked out how it can be done, and through social engineering it wouldn't take too much work to put someone into a position where they can effect change in some way, shape or form.

I'm not sure that VAR is or ever will be immune from this. In fact, VAR might just be the perfect method of cheating, because if you convince enough people it is infallible when it isn't then nobody will suspect a thing.

 

[Grassland Blue]

In theory it should be able to work out almost exact positions.

At the moment, you're stuck with frame rate, and having to choose between two frames, guessing which is the best. Even if the computer was assuming steady motion between each frame, then it would clearly be more accurate - after all the biggest margin of error is based on a runner at full speed, and those movements are going to the most predictable and smooth. The ones where the player is moving slowly or changing direction will be more complex, but of course already have a much smaller margin of error.

However AI should be much cleverer than assuming steady motion. It's not as if we're watching 22 Ian Curtis's jerking about randomly across the pitch. We're watching people who will speed up and slow down over multiple frames, who will be making relatively infrequent and fairly predictable changes in direction (infrequent in that they won't change direction multiple times a second, and predictable to a computer in hindsight).

Every movement in your body is signalled by movements elsewhere in the body - so if the AI has data from all over the body, it can predict what's expected to happen to other parts of the body. If you're going to change direction, or set off on a run, or make a feint, then different small movements all over your body will signal that, and a computer that's watched a million players doing exactly the same motion will be able to predict what happens next pretty accurately.

If you have to spend more than ,say, 30 seconds deciding if there has been an infringement, then in my eyes it's not a clear and obvious mistake and the referees' decision should stand.

 

[jjctid]

I’ll try and word this a bit more politely than I came across last time. But there were journalists on Twitter who discussed it at great length before the start of last season. I also remember it been discussed on one of those Sunday morning Sky Sports programmes. Just because you’re not aware of something it doesn’t automatically make it sinister.

I am not saying it was not discussed OR that there is anything sinister involved ( although I would like to see 1 of our borderline offside goals awarded with such speed ) All I am saying is that of all my friends and colleagues ( all with the same media connectivity ) that not one had not heard of the new "tolerance" guidelines. Finally I would be fairly certain that our lack of awareness of said guidelines would also put is in a large majority.

 

[bluenova]

With all the money swilling round in the game (legal/illegal gambling, sponsorship, prize money etc.) there will always be people willing to exploit the situation to satisfy their own greed. If there is a way to manipulate decisions for personal financial gain, somebody somewhere will have worked out how it can be done, and through social engineering it wouldn't take too much work to put someone into a position where they can effect change in some way, shape or form.

I'm not sure that VAR is or ever will be immune from this.

Hmmm... I would suggest that trying to override an automatic decision, in front of a variety of people from different organisations, that is expected to be shown in the stadium and on TV is Ocean's 11 level scamming :)

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

I am not saying it was not discussed OR that there is anything sinister involved ( although I would like to see 1 of our borderline offside goals awarded with such speed ) All I am saying is that of all my friends and colleagues ( all with the same media connectivity ) that not one had not heard of the new "tolerance" guidelines. Finally I would be fairly certain that our lack of awareness of said guidelines would also put is in a large majority.

If the new tolerances had been notified, surely there‘ll be evidence on line.

 

[bluenova]

If you have to spend more than ,say, 30 seconds deciding if there has been an infringement, then in my eyes it's not a clear and obvious mistake and the referees' decision should stand.

This only applies to offsides, and the computer decision will be pretty much instant - so no ones eyes will have to decide it if's clear. It apparently cuts down the whole offside process to 25 secs from 70 seconds, but I would guess that it might be even quicker for a goal, as the offside will be flagged to the var team as soon as the player receives the ball. By the time they put it in the net, the video will have been confirmed, and the ref informed.

 

[bluenova]

If the new tolerances had been notified, surely there‘ll be evidence on line.

Here are a few mentions from the 1st page on a google search. Pretty sure, it would have been in every newspaper, and sports website.

The ultimate guide to VAR in the Premier League - all your questions answered

Want to understand exactly how VAR works in the Premier League and other competitions? This is your one-stop shop for all your questions.

www.espn.co.uk

Premier League bid to change controversial offside line system on VAR

EXCLUSIVE BY JAMES SHARPE: The Premier League are planning a renewed attempt to persuade FIFA to allow a 'margin of error' on the tight offsides that continue to plague the game.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Premier League to use thicker lines for VAR offside decisions next season

Premier League video assistant referees will use thicker lines in order to determine offside calls next season. The use of VAR has come in for plenty of critici

www.90min.com

New Premier League VAR rules explained ahead of upcoming season

Rules around offside, handball and ‘streetwise’ penalty plays have all been tweaked

www.independent.co.uk

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Hmmm... I would suggest that trying to override an automatic decision, in front of a variety of people from different organisations, that is expected to be shown in the stadium and on TV is Ocean's 11 level scamming :)

If the prize is big enough...

Plus, it doesn't have to be done in full view. I could be that someone has access to real time calibration adjustments, or the ability to perform a system interrupt at any given moment.

 

[The Future’s Blue!]

Here are a few mentions from the 1st page on a google search. Pretty sure, it would have been in every newspaper, and sports website.

The ultimate guide to VAR in the Premier League - all your questions answered

Want to understand exactly how VAR works in the Premier League and other competitions? This is your one-stop shop for all your questions.

www.espn.co.uk

Premier League bid to change controversial offside line system on VAR

EXCLUSIVE BY JAMES SHARPE: The Premier League are planning a renewed attempt to persuade FIFA to allow a 'margin of error' on the tight offsides that continue to plague the game.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Premier League to use thicker lines for VAR offside decisions next season

Premier League video assistant referees will use thicker lines in order to determine offside calls next season. The use of VAR has come in for plenty of critici

www.90min.com

New Premier League VAR rules explained ahead of upcoming season

Rules around offside, handball and ‘streetwise’ penalty plays have all been tweaked

www.independent.co.uk

And, there it was.

 

[bluenova]

If the prize is big enough...

Plus, it doesn't have to be done in full view. I could be that someone has access to real time calibration adjustments, or the ability to perform a system interrupt at any given moment.

So, every time the team they want to win is attacking, they recalibrate so it's to their advantage, and every time the opponents attack they do the opposite. And no-one spots that one side is constantly getting wrong decisions? And the system doesn't flag up that it's being recalibrated every minute? You're looking at the programming team inserting some kind of back door to do this.

As for interrupts, when do they do the interrupt? It can't be every offside decision, as that would clearly be noticed. If it's just after a goal, then the decision will already have been made and flashed up to the VAR team. If it shuts off coincidentally just after a close decision on a goal happens, then there's going to be an inquiry into why that happened.

There are much easier ways to fix a match.

 

[Blue Mist]

I’ll try and word this a bit more politely than I came across last time. But there were journalists on Twitter who discussed it at great length before the start of last season. I also remember it been discussed on one of those Sunday morning Sky Sports programmes. Just because you’re not aware of something it doesn’t automatically make it sinister.

Nice one, good come back. When something new is implemented there are often problems, a good business sorts them out quickly and is open and honest about the process.
One of the problems re var is how they implemented it. It was almost a do as we say and don't ask questions, especially if you are a fan. Once scepticism starts it is hard to remove.
I have just read the Mail article and it is sensible and clear, sadly it is about 3 years too late. Why can they not state why a player was offside and even use the screens in the ground to show it? Why can't we hear them? Other sports tell fans why it was a foul etc.
Pigmob and the Premier League do seem to make everything awkward.
Finally, re the Trippier foul. If the ref had announced that he believed it was a studs first challenge, therefore a red but, on looking at the replay he accepts he was wrong, there would be 25 less pages on this thread because we would have understood his decision.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

So, every time the team they want to win is attacking, they recalibrate so it's to their advantage, and every time the opponents attack they do the opposite. And no-one spots that one side is constantly getting wrong decisions? And the system doesn't flag up that it's being recalibrated every minute? You're looking at the programming team inserting some kind of back door to do this.

As for interrupts, when do they do the interrupt? It can't be every offside decision, as that would clearly be noticed. If it's just after a goal, then the decision will already have been made and flashed up to the VAR team. If it shuts off coincidentally just after a close decision on a goal happens, then there's going to be an inquiry into why that happened.

There are much easier ways to fix a match.

There are much easier ways to fix a game.

But the odd VAR 'glitch' would go relatively unnoticed because the operators (who incidentally have invested £Millions in the technology) are't going to say anything because that would be essentially admitting that the system they claimed was accurate can't be relied upon.

Say it happens 10-20 time a season, different teams, in matches that don't effect promotion/relegation/the title/CL places. Those kind of patterns are incredibly difficult to spot, and as long as they don't get too trigger happy, nobody is ever going to know. Someone being influence by a betting syndicate could do a lot of damage.

 

[Blue Mist]

Here are a few mentions from the 1st page on a google search. Pretty sure, it would have been in every newspaper, and sports website.

The ultimate guide to VAR in the Premier League - all your questions answered

Want to understand exactly how VAR works in the Premier League and other competitions? This is your one-stop shop for all your questions.

www.espn.co.uk

Premier League bid to change controversial offside line system on VAR

EXCLUSIVE BY JAMES SHARPE: The Premier League are planning a renewed attempt to persuade FIFA to allow a 'margin of error' on the tight offsides that continue to plague the game.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Premier League to use thicker lines for VAR offside decisions next season

Premier League video assistant referees will use thicker lines in order to determine offside calls next season. The use of VAR has come in for plenty of critici

www.90min.com

New Premier League VAR rules explained ahead of upcoming season

Rules around offside, handball and ‘streetwise’ penalty plays have all been tweaked

www.independent.co.uk

Thanks for those @bluenova It states how a goal can be ruled out if a foul is committed in the attacking phase.
It does not explain when an attacking phase starts, perhaps you can?
It is easy if DeGea has the ball and as usual lumps it to Rashford who commits a foul before crossing it to Ronaldo to score. Dead simple.
We have 70% possession our attack can start with Eddie throwing it to kdb who fouls someone before playing it to Bernie, 5 minutes later we are going across the 18yd box for the 4th time before Mahrez shoots and scores.
That is the problem, or one of them at least.

 

[SWP's back]

Agreed that this is a sensible move but the dubious aspect is where he talks about 'once the ball release frame has been agreed' 'it is locked in'. Previous articles have shown a +/-3 frame (at 50 frames a second) possibility. These new guidelines do not build in any margin of era for that subjective choice. Assuming a player is moving in one direction at 12 seconds per 100m (quite slow sprint) that equates to 16 cm + or - for each 3 frame margin (32cm over all = 1ft if defender and attacker moving at samespeed in opposite directions. )
Now show that tolerance in the lines and VAR begins to look rediculous. Faster frame rates will help. Be interesting to see if semi automated works. Either way, it is plainly wrong for the article to state Offsides are now a 'fact'.

Totally agree, but building in more tolerance (as they’re now doing) is a step in the right direction and far more in the spirit of the law (to stop goal hanging). The last few weeks have shown VAR to stop a good few miscarriages. It’s no where near perfect but it’s much better than previously. I remember Kane being 6 yards offside and there was fuck that could be done after he scored. That sort of thing fucked me off far more.

 

[bluenova]

Thanks for those @bluenova It states how a goal can be ruled out if a foul is committed in the attacking phase.
It does not explain when an attacking phase starts, perhaps you can?
It is easy if DeGea has the ball and as usual lumps it to Rashford who commits a foul before crossing it to Ronaldo to score. Dead simple.
We have 70% possession our attack can start with Eddie throwing it to kdb who fouls someone before playing it to Bernie, 5 minutes later we are going across the 18yd box for the 4th time before Mahrez shoots and scores.
That is the problem, or one of them at least.

I believe that wouldn't be an issue.

The FA site says, "The starting point for a phase of play that leads to a goal or penalty incident will be limited to the immediate phase and not necessarily go back to when the attacking team gained possession. Other factors for consideration will be the ability of the defence to reset and the momentum of the attack."

In your situation, I would guess that the KdB foul doesn't affect anything because the defending team have had time to reset. Pretty sure phases are quite short usually.

I remember there being a discussion before VAR was introduced, where the teams agreed that they didn't want to go back very far from a goal (doesn't stop them complaining now obviously).

 

[SWP's back]

RE this "tolerance" amendment - I have asked around about it and I have not found one person who knew about it. Personally the rashford goal was the first time I have heard it mentioned - make of that what you want.

I’m guessing one of the guys leading it knows what he’s talking about it.