VAR thread 2022/23

[SebastianBlue]

Apologies if I've misinterpreted your opinion.

This post suggests that you think VAR is used to manipulate results, which is what I thought your position was (and I'd assumed you want less of it because of that). Given that's the case, allowing any intervention in situations like the Casimero one, just lowers the bar, and allows the possibility of more manipulation.

Hence the point about City being screwed over. I don't think it's a strawman at all, I'm suggesting that if you believe VAR is used to manipulate outcomes, then making that easier by looking at more decisions, feels relevant to me.

But that isn’t what I advocate for, so it is a strawman. If you believe that is a valid point, that’s fine, but you were arguing I was making that point, which I haven’t.

Also, my opinion is not that VAR is always for manipulation of match outcomes, but rather it has been designed and implemented to allow for it, when desired. Officials aren’t always trying to manipulate matches, but I do think anyone believing they aren’t sometimes doing that—especially given the evidence from just the last season, much less evidence across world football in general—are being exceptionally naive.

Getting back to the actual debate, I think it would be helpful to apply a regression analysis to help define our individual base positions:

What is the stated point of VAR?

My understanding, from everything the FA, PGMOL, and the League have publicly stated, is the point of VAR is to decrease the officiating error rate to the lowest level possible (it can’t be eliminated entirely, that is impossible). With that is an implied goal of improving accuracy and consistency in decision-making.

However, the way officiating rules and VAR was designed, implemented, since modified several times, and actually employed is not actually in keeping with that stated mission.

Many of the design, implementation, and modifications decisions actually increase variance between different officiating and VAR teams, and from incident to incident. The rules themselves have been changed to become more subjective than they were prior to VAR. And there have been increasingly more high profile “mistakes” that PGMOL (recently Webb) have had to acknowledge and apologise for. Many of them were highly dubious in the context of how they impacted the teams they went against (Brighton, Wolves, Leeds to name a few), or the teams they went for (often members of the top six, funny enough).

And, as I have pointed out countless times, incompetence can only be an explanation for a limited period. Once the ‘state of incompetence’ has persisted—even despite there being various fairly straightforward methods to remove/mitigate it—it transitions in to corruption.

What I want is major reform so that VAR is actually a system that achieves it’s stated goal.

But there appears to be very little appetite for that amongst the governing bodies.

And I personally don’t think that is because they just don’t know how to make it better and improve the confidence football fans have in the integrity of the sport.

 

[Stephen230]

I understand the protocol now, but it seemed you were arguing that VAR shouldn’t get involved in these types of incidents (even though they were already involved) because it would lead to too much VAR intervention.

Did I misunderstand?

I wouldn’t say I’m actively against them getting more involved in a wider range of calls. But I can see the pitfalls if they did.

I think another guy has pretty much just made this same point. But most people seem keen for less VAR involvement most of the time. But now suddenly on the back of this one incident, they seem to be asking for more.

 

[Blue Mist]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when the rags have has a contentious Var decision go against them.
Either a hell of a lot of posters have me on ignore (understandable really) or no one can think of ONE single decision

 

[woody1968]

Good point. I think it was one of those orange cards so just shy of a red and no need to alert the ref. The ref got it wrong but not wrong enough. Your right VAR intervening to award yellow cards and free kicks would be farcical.

Well said - I think that just about sums up the Casemiro incident.

 

[KentBlue]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when the rags have has a contentious Var decision go against them.
Either a hell of a lot of posters have me on ignore (understandable really) or no one can think of ONE single decision

I'm not ignoring you, mate. For what it's worth I saw your original post regarding a VAR decision going against them, but I also cannot for the life of me remember one such incident. I'm open to correction but I just can't remember a single one.
Says it all, really.

 

[Stephen230]

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me when the rags have has a contentious Var decision go against them.
Either a hell of a lot of posters have me on ignore (understandable really) or no one can think of ONE single decision

Best I can think of off the top of my head were those two Casemiro sendings off in short succession. Both instigated by the VAR.

That’s not to say I necessarily disagree with them before I’m accused of being a United fan yet again. But they fit your criteria of being VAR decisions and contentious I suppose.

 

[Nellies left peg]

Best I can think of off the top of my head were those two Casemiro sendings off in short succession. Both instigated by the VAR.

That’s not to say I necessarily disagree with them before I’m accused of being a United fan yet again. But they fit your criteria of being VAR decisions and contentious I suppose.

Rag!

 

[Stephen230]

Rag!

Thank you. I was getting worried. It’s been almost a week since the last one.

 

[Nellies left peg]

Thank you. I was getting worried. It’s been almost a week since the last one.

You’re welcome,I didn’t want others to get in first and call you a fucking rag **** they can be cruel at times :-)

 

[TonyColemansbagofapples]

We keep winning despite PGMOL and VAR trying to stop us.

Every close decision went the way of the Rags and only murmurings from the media about the corruption.

Some weren't exactly close

 

[TonyColemansbagofapples]

Because the ref gets to see it once at full speed. From the angle he's looking, Akanji has overhit the ball, which he did, and Casemiro would look to have his right foot close to play the ball. Akanji is definitely stretching to get there, and so if the ref can't see the contact exactly, the fact that Casemiro pretends he's been hurt, it's a reasonable decision, even if totally wrong.

It's only when you look at the replay/other angles does it become absolutely clear, but you can see how the ref might have made a mistake at full speed.

Well how come he saw every other decision in the scum's favour? Just asking

 

[Stephen230]

You’re welcome,I didn’t want others to get in first and call you a fucking rag **** they can be cruel at times :-)

They can. And it’s very hurtful. One particularly mean poster said I wasn’t EVEN a United fan the other day, but a robot.

It’s almost like Ian Curtis died in vain sometimes on here.

 

[madloaf]

Best I can think of off the top of my head were those two Casemiro sendings off in short succession. Both instigated by the VAR.

That’s not to say I necessarily disagree with them before I’m accused of being a United fan yet again. But they fit your criteria of being VAR decisions and contentious I suppose.

VAR decisions. Yes.

Contentious. Hmm

 

[Blue Mist]

Best I can think of off the top of my head were those two Casemiro sendings off in short succession. Both instigated by the VAR.

That’s not to say I necessarily disagree with them before I’m accused of being a United fan yet again. But they fit your criteria of being VAR decisions and contentious I suppose.

Casemiros sending off were
1. In a handbags melee he put his had on an opponents throat.
2. A studs up challenge straight onto a players shin. (It's almost like a trademark of his)
The first I assume the ref missed it because he was watching other players 'fight' the second, hmmmmm, they have a habit these referees of missing nasty challenges by him. I couldn't find a clip so I can't say if it was controversial, the first maybe because they were all pushing and shoving.
And that folks, seems to be it. We have at least 4 in one game (if grealish is given Wan Bissakas has to be) and they have one (possibly) all season. Hmmmmmm again.

 

[Cassandra]

He's not allowed to.

He's miked up, so if the assistant saw it the other way, they could have let him know. If they both thought it was an Akanji foul, then, pretending to change his mind, because he's been tipped off by VAR, would be deliberately breaking the rules he's supposed to follow.

Law 6 seems to contradict that view
"The referee, assistant referees, fourth official, additional assistant referees and
reserve assistant referee are the ‘on-field’ match officials." ......

"With the exception of the reserve assistant referee, the ‘on-field’ match officials
assist the referee with offences when they have a clearer view than the referee ...."

 

[Stephen230]

Law 6 seems to contradict that view
"The referee, assistant referees, fourth official, additional assistant referees and
reserve assistant referee are the ‘on-field’ match officials." ......

"With the exception of the reserve assistant referee, the ‘on-field’ match officials
assist the referee with offences when they have a clearer view than the referee ...."

You’re right. A referee can change his decision as long as play hasn’t restarted.

There was a game in the World Cup. Struggling to remember between who now. But the ball went in the net. The referee clearly signalled a goal. The linesman then raised his flag. The referee didn’t appear to make any other obvious signal and they all just hung around waiting for the VAR.

There was a bit of a debate afterwards about whether protocol had been followed, so FIFA made a statement that the referee had in fact disallowed the goal and he’d made it clear to the VAR that his decision was no goal, despite not making it clear to anybody else.

It wasn’t important in that case because it was an offside call but it could have been vital if it had been for a foul as the original on field decision holds the most sway.

 

[bluenova]

Law 6 seems to contradict that view
"The referee, assistant referees, fourth official, additional assistant referees and
reserve assistant referee are the ‘on-field’ match officials." ......

"With the exception of the reserve assistant referee, the ‘on-field’ match officials
assist the referee with offences when they have a clearer view than the referee ...."

I was talking about the ref changing his mind after being told he'd made a mistake by VAR, not by his assistant.

My post said that if both assistant and ref saw it as an Akanji foul, there's nothing VAR can do, except look at a possible red. Even if VAR tell him 100% he's given it the wrong way, or that it's a definite yellow, he's not allowed to act on that, as it's not within the rules to change the decision based on VAR.

 

[bluenova]

Casemiros sending off were
1. In a handbags melee he put his had on an opponents throat.
2. A studs up challenge straight onto a players shin. (It's almost like a trademark of his)
The first I assume the ref missed it because he was watching other players 'fight' the second, hmmmmm, they have a habit these referees of missing nasty challenges by him. I couldn't find a clip so I can't say if it was controversial, the first maybe because they were all pushing and shoving.
And that folks, seems to be it. We have at least 4 in one game (if grealish is given Wan Bissakas has to be) and they have one (possibly) all season. Hmmmmmm again.

The studs up one was "contentious" because he played the ball first. It's a load of rubbish, but I think Van Dijk got away with one in Europe a few years back for the same reason. 100% red card for me.

The second, was a bit odder, as Casemiro is actually walking backwards for quite a few yards, while he's got his hands on Hughes, and some shots show that he originally had them on Hughes' shoulders. I guess he could argue that Hughes is the aggressor and Casemiro is holding him off, whereas the ref was only shown the shots without that context. Again a red for me, but I can see why it was a VAR controversy given the angles they showed. I don't think I'd have complained if it was yellow though.

 

[halfcenturyup]

I was talking about the ref changing his mind after being told he'd made a mistake by VAR, not by his assistant.

My post said that if both assistant and ref saw it as an Akanji foul, there's nothing VAR can do, except look at a possible red. Even if VAR tell him 100% he's given it the wrong way, or that it's a definite yellow, he's not allowed to act on that, as it's not within the rules to change the decision based on VAR.

You keep talking about rules, and others about protocol. I am not sure anyone is disagreeing with what the rules and protocol are. The question is whether they make any sense. And, before you say it, no-one is suggesting every foul or yellow card is formally reviewed by VAR. The point in this example is that VAR already looked at, and had notified the referee that they were looking at, a possible red card.

If they were looking at a possible red card for Casemiro, they have already come to the conclusion the referee made a mistake. I can't understand why on earth, in those circumstances, you wouldn't want to get the decision right? It just makes the whole process laughable in one of the biggest games of the season.

On another point: let's say VAR recommended a review for a Casemiro red card, and the referee felt there wasn't enough in it for red, how would he restart the game? A free kick to United, or a yellow to Casemiro and a free kick to City?

None of it makes any sense to me.

 

[bluenova]

You keep talking about rules, and others about protocol. I am not sure anyone is disagreeing with what the rules and protocol are. The question is whether they make any sense. And, before you say it, no-one is suggesting every foul or yellow card is formally reviewed by VAR. The point in this example is that VAR already looked at, and had notified the referee that they were looking at, a possible red card.

If they were looking at a possible red card for Casemiro, they have already come to the conclusion the referee made a mistake. I can't understand why on earth, in those circumstances, you wouldn't want to get the decision right? It just makes the whole process laughable in one of the biggest games of the season.

On another point: let's say VAR recommended a review for a Casemiro red card, and the referee felt there wasn't enough in it for red, how would he restart the game? A free kick to United, or a yellow to Casemiro and a free kick to City?

None of it makes any sense to me.

"Protocol" is simply the official description of the rules for VAR.

I agree that it was an easy decision yesterday, but the problem is where do you draw the line? You don't want the VAR to be arguing about 50/50 or 60/40 challenges for a simple foul, or even a yellow card - they may have importance, but they're much more common and much less important events than a red card or goal. So, would you say, only when it's really obvious...or maybe "clear and obvious"?

And that's the problem - how many discussions are there about what a "clear and obvious" error is, and how many times does "clear and obvious" seem to depend on the team people support? Yesterday was an unusually poor decision, but it's an outlier - I doubt we'll see another decision like it all next season, but if we change the rules we might see a lot more marginal decisions argued over endlessly.

All that might not make sense to you, but the thing to remember is that VAR isn't there to fix all decisions - it's been decided all over the world that it will only look at the major ones, and we leave the others to the ref's on field decision, even though we know they'll make mistakes. Introducing a rule that only applies to the really obvious ones, isn't possible, and given how much controversy VAR generates, they'd be mad to try and introduce a rule which only affects some yellow card offences, but not others.

On your other point, the ref would have to stick to his original decision. As soon as it went to review yesterday, he must have been told/realised that he'd make a mistake, so seeing it doesn't change the rules he has to follow.