yaya.....

[Didsbury Dave]

Well, my guess is the manager feels the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Yaya, Silva, Nasri, Aguero and Negredo linking up we are as good an attacking side is there is anywhere. I think he has felt that he could coach Ya Ya into a better holding player, or shuffle the system internally (high line, wide men coming inside to defend), or simply blow teams away by outscoring them. He did make allowances at Chelsea, and he has made the change in some games (like Southampton), but I think the time has come where he has to bite the bullet.

Arsenal is a real conundrum. Blow them away or nullify them?

 

[YaYa]

Well, my guess is the manager feels the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Yaya, Silva, Nasri, Aguero and Negredo linking up we are as good an attacking side is there is anywhere. I think he has felt that he could coach Ya Ya into a better holding player, or shuffle the system internally (high line, wide men coming inside to defend), or simply blow teams away by outscoring them. He did make allowances at Chelsea, and he has made the change in some games (like Southampton), but I think the time has come where he has to bite the bullet.

Arsenal is a real conundrum. Blow them away or nullify them?

We'll blow Arsenal away on Saturday. Yaya will turn it on big time, like he does in all the big games.

I agree that Pellers has to bite the bullet in certain away games. We may regret it come the end of the season if he doesn't.

 

[Big_Alan]

At the end of the day Barcelona let him go for a reason.....We are a top club now with world class players ,but not all world class players are suited to the job that needs to be done....Yaya does spectacular things every now and then,yes he is a classy footballer but so is most of our squad..I personally wouldnt mind if he went and we went and got a hard working ball winning midfielder instead...Sometimes you just have to let class players go because they arent suited to the job you need from them.....I wouldnt mind a Vidal or a Mascherano instead..

 

[dancity19]

Well, my guess is the manager feels the benefits outweigh the negatives. With Yaya, Silva, Nasri, Aguero and Negredo linking up we are as good an attacking side is there is anywhere. I think he has felt that he could coach Ya Ya into a better holding player, or shuffle the system internally (high line, wide men coming inside to defend), or simply blow teams away by outscoring them. He did make allowances at Chelsea, and he has made the change in some games (like Southampton), but I think the time has come where he has to bite the bullet.

Arsenal is a real conundrum. Blow them away or nullify them?

From what I hear, through a second hand source, but in my opinion a very well place second source is that Yaya doesn't at all like playing the holding role. As has been said, Yaya is obviously better going forward, but as it stands there is no one in the team that is any better, or could even do half the job. Rodwell is an option when fit, and I always think Milner could be worthwhile for his energy and mobility in little pockets, but it is becoming more and more clear that he has nowhere near the technical ability to keep up with our players.

Added to that is, on current form you can't really drop Nasri, and Silva will obviously be in the team too. So it's down to Yaya's added versatility over Nasri and Silva that he does play deeper rather than further foward. We could do with another deep lying midfielder in January- but having spent £30m on Fernandinho, and a large amount in total over the Summer I can't imagine we will go big in January- plus it is difficult to sign quality then anyway. If we did buy someone, the other question would be who do we drop higher up the pitch as Yaya will always play. Obviously, though, there is rotation.

To jump on the band wagon of the current in vougue player, but I would love it if we went for someone like Pogba, if we were to go for another midfielder.

 

[OB1]

Yep Barry would have been great.

Whilst a tremendous defensive midfielder, Barry was also one of the worst at the club at coping with a high press. You have to be mobile, athletic and quick to deal with this tactic and Gaz Baz was none of the above. All his worst games last season were against high intensity pressure merchants (Everton, Southampton, Liverpool).

And therein lies the problem with Ya Ya as well. His performance at Sunderland I will concede was a half hearted disgrace, but the problem generally is not laziness, but rather that he is just not built for shuttle running back and forth, and closing opponents down. The guy is a magnificent footballer, but if he's deployed to poor effect in a 4-4-2 against a good, high tempo, passing team going 4-5-1, it ain't Ya Ya's fault, it's the manager's.

Tell you what, fella.

The Ya Ya conundrum is costing us a lot of points and needs addressing fast. Like you, I don't buy any of the "lazy" stuff. He's a very committed player and a very good player, but one with a huge limitation to his game. He is of course superb at bursting forward and using his strength, but his instinct to do that leaves a huge gap in a 4222 when the move breaks down. And if a mobile player runs at him they just run right past him. And that's what kept happening on Saturday and has happened in all of the games we have come under pressure.

We can afford him in the deep role in the easier homes games, we can even afford him there against the less mobile midfields (like Man United's), but we can't afford to keep playing him there against the better sides, the ones who can play. YEs, they will press him out of posession, but they'll also isolate him and run straight past him.

Every single Southampton attack came from this problem. Players were gojng past him like he wasnt there.

The answer is of course to play him in the hole in the 4231 in those tougher games and keep him where he is for the easier games. But the manager is going to have to bite the bullet on this one. Ya Ya is never going to learn to tackle or play in tight spaces. Never.

I sometimes wonder if there was truth in the old rumour I heard that his contract was based on a guaranteed first team start.

So, Dave, which points lost do you specifically think can be blamed on Yaya?

 

[St Helens Blue (Exiled)]

Yaya is a god in my eyes.

Best defensive midfielder in the prem by a million miles

 

[dancity19]

Yaya is a god in my eyes.

Best defensive midfielder in the prem by a million miles

No one has disputed his undeniable quality.

Not sure anyone has even suggested he isn't the best defensive midfielder in the prem. But the fact is he is a MUCH better going forward. And, he isn't great in a packed midfield. If we can find a way to play him higher up that would be best for the team.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Whilst a tremendous defensive midfielder, Barry was also one of the worst at the club at coping with a high press. You have to be mobile, athletic and quick to deal with this tactic and Gaz Baz was none of the above. All his worst games last season were against high intensity pressure merchants (Everton, Southampton, Liverpool).

And therein lies the problem with Ya Ya as well. His performance at Sunderland I will concede was a half hearted disgrace, but the problem generally is not laziness, but rather that he is just not built for shuttle running back and forth, and closing opponents down. The guy is a magnificent footballer, but if he's deployed to poor effect in a 4-4-2 against a good, high tempo, passing team going 4-5-1, it ain't Ya Ya's fault, it's the manager's.

Tell you what, fella.

The Ya Ya conundrum is costing us a lot of points and needs addressing fast. Like you, I don't buy any of the "lazy" stuff. He's a very committed player and a very good player, but one with a huge limitation to his game. He is of course superb at bursting forward and using his strength, but his instinct to do that leaves a huge gap in a 4222 when the move breaks down. And if a mobile player runs at him they just run right past him. And that's what kept happening on Saturday and has happened in all of the games we have come under pressure.

We can afford him in the deep role in the easier homes games, we can even afford him there against the less mobile midfields (like Man United's), but we can't afford to keep playing him there against the better sides, the ones who can play. YEs, they will press him out of posession, but they'll also isolate him and run straight past him.

Every single Southampton attack came from this problem. Players were gojng past him like he wasnt there.

The answer is of course to play him in the hole in the 4231 in those tougher games and keep him where he is for the easier games. But the manager is going to have to bite the bullet on this one. Ya Ya is never going to learn to tackle or play in tight spaces. Never.

I sometimes wonder if there was truth in the old rumour I heard that his contract was based on a guaranteed first team start.

So, Dave, which points lost do you specifically think can be blamed on Yaya?

Well, it isn't as simple as "Blaming it on Ya Ya", OB, but we've had Bayern running past him and Southampton running past him, and Cardiff too, off the top of my head. It was bad at home to Hull, too.

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

 

[Dribble]

He is a colossus of a player. All blues seeing him play know that. A powerhouse, clever with intricate passing, long range passing, accurate shooting and bursting forward with power and pace at his wont. When City don't have the ball he is found wanting in his desire to win it back. At the Etihad but especially away from home, teams have midfielders buzzing around in triangles and Toure looks lost, bereft and unconcerned. It's elementary to me. We have to play another midfield "grafter" alongside Fernandinho to make up for Toure's lethargy in this area of his game.

Yep Barry would have been great.

Whilst a tremendous defensive midfielder, Barry was also one of the worst at the club at coping with a high press. You have to be mobile, athletic and quick to deal with this tactic and Gaz Baz was none of the above. All his worst games last season were against high intensity pressure merchants (Everton, Southampton, Liverpool).

And therein lies the problem with Yaya as well. His performance at Sunderland I will concede was a half hearted disgrace, but the problem generally is not laziness, but rather that he is just not built for shuttle running back and forth, and closing opponents down. The guy is a magnificent footballer, but if he's deployed to poor effect in a 4-4-2 against a good, high tempo, passing team going 4-5-1, it ain't Ya Ya's fault, it's the manager's.

^^^This & Only This!!^^^

I couldn't have put it better myself. Yaya is not and has never a box to box midfielder and nothing in his past suggest that he ever will be. At Barca he was the deepest of a 3 man midfield where he used his skills to devastating effect.

Look at the size of the dude. There is no way he can do what is being asked of him as part of a midfield two effectively. Look how many times this season he's made one of his lung-bursting runs into the opposition area and once the attack is over, you can see him wheezing his way back to the half way line whilst Fernandinho is trying to cope with 3 midfielders on his own.

In short 4-4-2 doesn't suit Yaya especially against high tempo sides who utilise a 3 man midfield and who relentlessly press us.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

I agreed totally with this a little earlier in the thread, Billy.

This problem is only there in some games - when we play against a 3 man, mobile midfield. It is no problem whatsoever in 3/4 of the games.

 

[aguero93:20]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

sí! you put the very best footballers in the world up against shit and they'll struggle if they're continually outnumbered, ever see the game where Valencia played 110 schoolkids? for me its a lot to do with how we fall back when we lose the ball, nasris tracking back, but on the flank, if he was to drop into the middle and one of the strikers to his flank, it would make us far more compact.

 

[FromPollockToSilva]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

Ceding the midfield is very risky though, especially away from home as it invites a lot of pressure on a (until now) very unsettled defence, while simultaneously requiring your forwards to convert pretty much every chance they make. Had Aguero tucked in the great opening that Zabaleta made for him, we'd have been 2-0 up, could have brought on Navas and Garcia, soaked up the pressure better and looked to play on the counter. But we never got the cushion (as has been the case a few times now), and eventually paid the price for giving up the middle of the park.

It's looking like the risk/reward calculation for playing this way away from home is leaning heavily towards risk; we're not seeing enough benefits to justify it so far. That may well change, once the defence is settled and Silva returns, but as of right now it doesn't seem the most successful strategy on the road.

 

[Dribble]

At the end of the day Barcelona let him go for a reason.....We are a top club now with world class players ,but not all world class players are suited to the job that needs to be done....Yaya does spectacular things every now and then,yes he is a classy footballer but so is most of our squad..I personally wouldnt mind if he went and we went and got a hard working ball winning midfielder instead...Sometimes you just have to let class players go because they arent suited to the job you need from them.....I wouldnt mind a Vidal or a Mascherano instead..

You're having a laff right?

 

[Nelly's Left Foot]

At the end of the day Barcelona let him go for a reason.....We are a top club now with world class players ,but not all world class players are suited to the job that needs to be done....Yaya does spectacular things every now and then,yes he is a classy footballer but so is most of our squad..I personally wouldnt mind if he went and we went and got a hard working ball winning midfielder instead...Sometimes you just have to let class players go because they arent suited to the job you need from them.....I wouldnt mind a Vidal or a Mascherano instead..

You're having a laff right?

The amazing thing is that I am sure he isn't having a laugh.The negative voices about Yaya can only see negative points and fail to understand how good the guy is overall.The sane voices realise he has a weakness if he is given a defensive responsibility as part of a 2 in the middle but can see it is outweighed by the quality and class he brings to the game.

I would expect that all the teams in the premiership would love to have Yaya in their team and the one nearest to us would be massively improved if they had him.

 

[Dribble]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

sí! you put the very best footballers in the world up against shit and they'll struggle if they're continually outnumbered, ever see the game where Valencia played 110 schoolkids? for me its a lot to do with how we fall back when we lose the ball, nasris tracking back, but on the flank, if he was to drop into the middle and one of the strikers to his flank, it would make us far more compact.

So essentially a 4-3-3.... How novel and common-sense based that is! :-)

It's so obvious what we need to do, it makes a mockery of why it isn't being done. There was nothing much wrong with our 4-2-3-1 that better personnel wouldn't have solved IMHO.

 

[aguero93:20]

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

sí! you put the very best footballers in the world up against shit and they'll struggle if they're continually outnumbered, ever see the game where Valencia played 110 schoolkids? for me its a lot to do with how we fall back when we lose the ball, nasris tracking back, but on the flank, if he was to drop into the middle and one of the strikers to his flank, it would make us far more compact.

So essentially a 4-3-3.... How novel and common-sense based that is! :-)

It's so obvious what we need to do, it makes a mockery of why it isn't being done. There was nothing much wrong with our 4-2-3-1 that better personnel wouldn't have solved IMHO.

I think you misunderstand, the benefits of attacking with a 4-4-2 with current personnel mean I wouldn't advocate changing the basic formation, just a little change tactically to cope with the initial surge of a counter-attack, where too many teams are roping us in by pushing hard through the middle then hitting the space between full back and centre half, when our wide players belatedly come in, get them in earlier and get a striker to protect the full back.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.

I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.

What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

sí! you put the very best footballers in the world up against shit and they'll struggle if they're continually outnumbered, ever see the game where Valencia played 110 schoolkids? for me its a lot to do with how we fall back when we lose the ball, nasris tracking back, but on the flank, if he was to drop into the middle and one of the strikers to his flank, it would make us far more compact.

So essentially a 4-3-3.... How novel and common-sense based that is! :-)

It's so obvious what we need to do, it makes a mockery of why it isn't being done. There was nothing much wrong with our 4-2-3-1 that better personnel wouldn't have solved IMHO.

The question for me has continually been about personnel rather than straight stubbornness from the manager. I'm curious as to what variation of 433, given our injuries in the last couple of months, would be workable regularly.

The problem as I see it is that with Rodwell being injured so much, you either play Garcia in the middle or you play Milner. Neither provides enough technical quality, which is imperative to the way we play. You can move Nasri central as we've seen Pellegrini do at times during the course of games, but again, with Silva and Jovetic injured it limits the options you can play from wide areas.

Basically any 433 which needs to accommodate Milner or Garcia in a central midfield or wide attacking berth, isn't good enough IMO and it isn't something i'd be in favour of using even against a team like Southampton.

 

[George Hannah]

I'm not blaming him or not rating him as a player, but him in that role in that system is causing us a problem.

I'm gonna be controversial and disagree with the three of you. I don't think Yaya/Dinho is particularly a problem. I think that playing 442, even with a player who's characteristics on the face of it are more suited to playing in that system, will always lead us to problems against teams playing 433 who have technically skilled players who can press high and pass well.
I think the commitment to 442 is based upon an acceptance that you may cede ground in the centre of the park and may at times get overrun, but that you will pose a much more dangerous goal threat because when you attack you have so many options and so much movement. The goals we've scored and the chances we create are a testament to that.
What i'm trying to say is that i'm not convinced another central midfield player with better "legs" for closing down would fare any better in that system. It will work well and work big most of the time, but when it doesn't work it will expose the two central midfield players.

I agreed totally with this a little earlier in the thread, Billy.
This problem is only there in some games - when we play against a 3 man, mobile midfield. It is no problem whatsoever in 3/4 of the games.

which is what every team we play sets up against us - obviously with varying degrees of success and luck.

 

[Dribble]

sí! you put the very best footballers in the world up against shit and they'll struggle if they're continually outnumbered, ever see the game where Valencia played 110 schoolkids? for me its a lot to do with how we fall back when we lose the ball, nasris tracking back, but on the flank, if he was to drop into the middle and one of the strikers to his flank, it would make us far more compact.

So essentially a 4-3-3.... How novel and common-sense based that is! :-)

It's so obvious what we need to do, it makes a mockery of why it isn't being done. There was nothing much wrong with our 4-2-3-1 that better personnel wouldn't have solved IMHO.

The question for me has continually been about personnel rather than straight stubbornness from the manager. I'm curious as to what variation of 433, given our injuries in the last couple of months, would be workable regularly.

The problem as I see it is that with Rodwell being injured so much, you either play Garcia in the middle or you play Milner. Neither provides enough technical quality, which is imperative to the way we play. You can move Nasri central as we've seen Pellegrini do at times during the course of games, but again, with Silva and Jovetic injured it limits the options you can play from wide areas.

Basically any 433 which needs to accommodate Milner or Garcia in a central midfield or wide attacking berth, isn't good enough IMO and it isn't something i'd be in favour of using even against a team like Southampton.

4-3-3 has variations with my personal choice being a 4-1-2-3. I really don't see the need for us to have 2 specialist defensive midfielders when one will do if at least one of the more advanced midfield two is a quality box to box midfielder. In Yaya's case if we compressed the space around him, he'd have less ground to cover and would be far more effective than having to cover vast amounts of space.

I'd play Fernadinho in front of the back four and have Silva & Yaya in front of him with a front 3 of Sergio in the middle flanked by Nasri to the left and Navas to the right. Playing as a unit in this formation I feel would be best for us right now. As always, we should attack as a unit and defend as a unit to compress the playing space. This would always leave us open to the counter-attack but with Clichy and Kompany to provide pace and the speed of thought of Zabs and Nasty, I reckon we'd be as solid as we've ever been whilst being as flair-filled as we've ever been.

I'd start from this basis in all matches and make my adjustments according to who we're playing and where we're playing them. We can't seriously expect to go into matches against the Real's, Barca's & Bayern's of this world and come out with any change by deploying an antiquated 4-4-2 formation. Norwich and the Rags at home yes, but not against teams who have the personnel and a tactician at the helm who can easily counter a 4-4-2.

Moyes is no great tactician, but even he sussed at 4-0 down that he needed to change something during the recent derby. When ManUre went to a 3 man midfield, the pendulum swung in their favour, it was just a blessing that we were already out of sight and able to see the game out.