Fabinho

[Tricky_Trev]

Why does everyone suddenly think Gundogan is a DM??

 

[TRUE BLUE NO1]

Why does everyone suddenly think Gundogan is a DM??

Was thinking the same mate....cant wait to see him back fit and playing in the squad next season but really dont see him in a DM role. With Yaya and Fern the only players that can do that role, I still see DM as a long term problem area that needs fixing.

 

[Delphacito]

Gundogan is very very capable of playing the DM. Right now the most prototypical Pep-style DM in the world would be Thiago. Watch Thiago's game and then watch Gundogan's. They're not that different - Thiago just does it better but they're similar.

 

[Divino da Guia]

Can we buy Fabinho just to p*ss the rags off even if we dont really want him :) Carvalho has a far superior passing ability imo and not as slow as some on here make out, plus under Pep Carvalho will be leaner, fitter and quicker than he's ever been!!

This is not true at all.
Carvalho Average Pass Lenght is 19m.
Fabinho APL is 19m too, but in a tougher league.
In the Champions League Fabinho APL stays in 19m and Carvalho APL drops to 17m.

As i said in another thread, none of those players are Fernando Redondo, i think City will get a heavy ball possession next season, and in the end i'll trust the player that Pep will pick.

But lets not pretend that the world of football see Carvalho in the same level of Fabinho because is not true.

Go to any major football forum, RagCafe, for example, search for "William Carvalho" and you realize the majority of fans think he's a donkey.

 

[Andrew___K]

Gundogan is very very capable of playing the DM. Right now the most prototypical Pep-style DM in the world would be Thiago. Watch Thiago's game and then watch Gundogan's. They're not that different - Thiago just does it better but they're similar.

Neither Gundo nor Thiago are capable DM pivots, their strong side is progressing the ball through N8 areas - either from deep or in front of the oppo's box. They both need a DM beside them (Bender, Weigl, Lahm, Alonso).
Gundo never played as a sole DM pivot, at least I'd like to hear in what particular game he did that for BvB (I'm 99,9% sure he never played pivot for City).
Funnily enough, Pep brought Thiago to Bayern to play DM (the first game was vs BvB in the German Supercup), and it was a disaster - Thiago clearly lacks 'strategic' vision, he's a flashy passer most suited for an advanced N8 role ('Iniesta'). Pep soon realised it and moved Thiago further, Lahm took the DM role, later Alonso.

 

[domalino]

This is not true at all.
Carvalho Average Pass Lenght is 19m.
Fabinho APL is 19m too, but in a tougher league.
In the Champions League Fabinho APL stays in 19m and Carvalho APL drops to 17m.

As i said in another thread, none of those players are Fernando Redondo, i think City will get a heavy ball possession next season, and in the end i'll trust the player that Pep will pick.

But lets not pretend that the world of football see Carvalho in the same level of Fabinho because is not true.

Go to any major football forum, RagCafe, for example, search for "William Carvalho" and you realize the majority of fans think he's a donkey.

A great example of awful use of statistics.

Carvalho is without a doubt a much better passer than Fabinho, anyone who's watched the two of them can tell you that.

What you've looked up is "average pass length" and tried to pass that off as "better passing" which surely you must realise is ridiculous?

 

[MasterOfKnees]

Gundogan is very very capable of playing the DM. Right now the most prototypical Pep-style DM in the world would be Thiago. Watch Thiago's game and then watch Gundogan's. They're not that different - Thiago just does it better but they're similar.

Uh, no, Thiago played further forward, he'd sometimes play DM in Pep's first season at Bayern but that was generally due to a lack of options when Lahm didn't play there, as soon as Alonso and later Vidal came in he never played there again. Thiago and Gundogan aren't very similar either, Thiago is more of a pass master Xavi-style midfielder while Gundogan can be more direct, drifts further out of position and is significantly more mobile in his play.

If we don't buy a DM this window I'm sure Yaya will be our first choice in the position, Gundogan might play there a few times because he can do alright there against smaller teams I'm sure, but it's not ideal.

 

[doobyedoobye]

If we only have Fernandinho and Yaya for the pivot role currently then it would be reckless to start the season without another world class option.

 

[Wrighty Wrexham]

All this transfer gossip is great but I feel we really need a top defensive midfielder signing. We need someone of the ilk of Kante DeJong etc and I was hoping it would be this guy Fabinho.
Hopefully he is just chilling on holiday and will just roll up one day out of the blue like the new Silva.

 

[Akiva]

If we only have Fernandinho and Yaya for the pivot role currently then it would be reckless to start the season without another world class option.

It's the likely scenario that we do, though.

We clearly have a target for the position but are unable to get him this window. Extending Yaya for one year smacks of a stop-gap until said target is available.

I'd take a year of Yaya, rotating with Dinho, and their more than adequate production in the role in order to snap up say, Weigl or Kimmich (or even an older option like Busquets) than panic buy a player available now who isn't a perfect fit at big money.

All this transfer gossip is great but I feel we really need a top defensive midfielder signing. We need someone of the ilk of Kante DeJong etc and I was hoping it would be this guy Fabinho.
Hopefully he is just chilling on holiday and will just roll up one day out of the blue like the new Silva.

We aren't in on Fabinho, sadly. Though as is mentioned in this thread, he's more a box-to-box midfielder than a natural DM pivot anyway.

 

[Andrew___K]

If we only have Fernandinho and Yaya for the pivot role currently then it would be reckless to start the season without another world class option.

There are no 'worldlass options' on the market, as all this 'DM pivot' thing is relatively new, as well as systematic use of JdP. I can't name any [potentially] worldclass pivots right now beside Busi, Weigl and probably Llorente, Kimmich. Buying an average player will just mean more dross in the foreign spots without any notable updrade. So, spending 1 more year with Yaya/Dinho is OK for me.
Carvalho isn't any better than current Yaya for me.

 

[Delphacito]

Neither Gundo nor Thiago are capable DM pivots, their strong side is progressing the ball through N8 areas - either from deep or in front of the oppo's box. They both need a DM beside them (Bender, Weigl, Lahm, Alonso).
Gundo never played as a sole DM pivot, at least I'd like to hear in what particular game he did that for BvB (I'm 99,9% sure he never played pivot for City).
Funnily enough, Pep brought Thiago to Bayern to play DM (the first game was vs BvB in the German Supercup), and it was a disaster - Thiago clearly lacks 'strategic' vision, he's a flashy passer most suited for an advanced N8 role ('Iniesta'). Pep soon realised it and moved Thiago further, Lahm took the DM role, later Alonso.

+ @MasterOfKnees

I have to clarify though that Thiago now is much more developed than when he first came to Bayern. Back then he had potential but nowadays he's pretty much world class, probably only behind Kroos in the midfield area. Whoscored also showed he played 10 times as a DM and 17 times as a CM this past season. I know this kind of statistics aren't the be all end all, but just something to consider. What I'm curious about is why do you think Gundogan is incapable of playing that position?

My point being, imo Gundogan has the necessary skills to be the pivot. Just because he was never deployed in that position, doesn't mean he couldn't. Lahm wasn't a pivot until Pep put him there and make him play that position.

 

[Jazzman]

Well according to that podcast by Billy Shears and Sam Lee, which I finally managed to listed to now, we can put this thread on a backburner. Fabinho is not on City's list.

 

[Andrew___K]

What I'm curious about is why do you think Gundogan is incapable of playing that position?

Because he has a skill set of a N8 playing slightly deeper, not pivot. Busi+Xavi, Weigl+Gundogan, I think the analogy is clear. Gundogan's best quality - the ability to progress the ball through midfield areas - would be wasted there, pivot can't run with the ball to opponent's box. There's a reason why he played in 2 possession-based teams and was never used as pivot there. Pep played him alongside Silva or KdB, he was constantly making runs into oppo's box and acted mostly as AM. Also showed that he's a fine goalscorer.
I'll just quote my earlier post on differences between pivot and deep-lying N8: "one of them predominantly sits in front of the defence, acts like a wavebreaker and distributes the ball to beat the first layer of press, mostly using simple, low-risk passes. Sometimes he can act as one of CBs. The other one helps to bring the ball further and participates in attacking moves much more, presses higher up the pitch, though he can occasionally drop as deep as pivot to help with the build-up. Obviously, the qualities needed for these two types of players differ a lot."

I have to clarify though that Thiago now is much more developed than when he first came to Bayern. Back then he had potential but nowadays he's pretty much world class, probably only behind Kroos in the midfield area. Whoscored also showed he played 10 times as a DM and 17 times as a CM this past season.

I didn't watch Bayern a lot this season, but I don't trust Whoscored. I'm pretty sure Thiago didn't play a game in this position (sole DM pivot), he doesn't fit it. Ask @Maldeika.

 

[Edwaardz]

Thiago is nevertheless a much more competent and intelligent defender than he was when he first signed for Bayern. He averaged more interceptions per game than any other player in Europe's top leagues last season (4.6). When you consider the amount of possession Bayern have, that's actually an incredible statistic.

 

[Delphacito]

Because he has a skill set of a N8 playing slightly deeper, not pivot. Busi+Xavi, Weigl+Gundogan, I think the analogy is clear. Gundogan's best quality - the ability to progress the ball through midfield areas - would be wasted there, pivot can't run with the ball to opponent's box. There's a reason why he played in 2 possession-based teams and was never used as pivot there. Pep played him alongside Silva or KdB, he was constantly making runs into oppo's box and acted mostly as AM. Also showed that he's a fine goalscorer.
I'll just quote my earlier post on differences between pivot and deep-lying N8: "one of them predominantly sits in front of the defence, acts like a wavebreaker and distributes the ball to beat the first layer of press, mostly using simple, low-risk passes. Sometimes he can act as one of CBs. The other one helps to bring the ball further and participates in attacking moves much more, presses higher up the pitch, though he can occasionally drop as deep as pivot to help with the build-up. Obviously, the qualities needed for these two types of players differ a lot."

I didn't watch Bayern a lot this season, but I don't trust Whoscored. I'm pretty sure Thiago didn't play a game in this position (sole DM pivot), he doesn't fit it. Ask @Maldeika.

You see all those things that you mentioned regarding the pivot, I've been saying all along Gundogan is capable of doing all those things. Whether his skill going forward is wasted or not is beside the point. That's like saying Lahm playing pivot is waste of his ability to overlap when he's as a fullback. The conversation is about whether City will buy another DM or not, and if not then we must look at who's available in our team currently, and from our options I'd say Gundogan is the best option.

 

[Dax777]

This is not true at all.
Carvalho Average Pass Lenght is 19m.
Fabinho APL is 19m too, but in a tougher league.
In the Champions League Fabinho APL stays in 19m and Carvalho APL drops to 17m.

As i said in another thread, none of those players are Fernando Redondo, i think City will get a heavy ball possession next season, and in the end i'll trust the player that Pep will pick.

But lets not pretend that the world of football see Carvalho in the same level of Fabinho because is not true.

Go to any major football forum, RagCafe, for example, search for "William Carvalho" and you realize the majority of fans think he's a donkey.

Yeah, but they mostly are clueless there.

 

[Dax777]

Gundogan is very very capable of playing the DM. Right now the most prototypical Pep-style DM in the world would be Thiago. Watch Thiago's game and then watch Gundogan's. They're not that different - Thiago just does it better but they're similar.

I don't think most consider Thiago or Gundogan traditional Pep DMs. Nor have either played in such a position under Pep. But, yes I agree with your underlying theory that both will be excellent at it, in light of their skill set.

That said, Leandro Paredes looks ripe for plucking. And he is far more of a Pivot DM than Fabihno ever could be.

And that's regardless of whether Fabihno is a better footballee or not.

 

[Delphacito]

I don't think most consider Thiago or Gundogan traditional Pep DMs. Nor have either played in such a position under Pep. But, yes I agree with your underlying theory that both will be excellent at it, in light of their skill set.

That said, Leandro Paredes looks ripe for plucking. And he is far more of a Pivot DM than Fabihno ever could be.

And that's regardless of whether Fabihno is a better footballee or not.

I don't why but everytime I look at Paredes it looks like Aleix Garcia with more games and without the timidness.

Marcos Llorente on the other hand is just great. Him or Weigl I'd take both.

 

[Andrew___K]

You see all those things that you mentioned regarding the pivot, I've been saying all along Gundogan is capable of doing all those things. Whether his skill going forward is wasted or not is beside the point. That's like saying Lahm playing pivot is waste of his ability to overlap when he's as a fullback. The conversation is about whether City will buy another DM or not, and if not then we must look at who's available in our team currently, and from our options I'd say Gundogan is the best option.

Have to add that Gundogan isn't a good wavebreaker. Having fit Gundogan Pep still played Dinho, Yaya or even Fernando as a pivot. You may see Gundogan as a best option, but Pep prefers those 3 over him. I don't doubt your knowledge, I'm just saying that Tuchel's and Guardiola's opinion is slightly different to yours.