Corruption in English football?

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Your point still stands from the past but Sky TV now has no interest in Skybet. Is is owned by Flutter Entertainment, which came about after the merger of Betfair and Paddy Power.

Bet 365 could offer odds on the next Stoke manager though. Although I believe they don’t actually do it to avoid unwanted publicity.

Sky has no interest in Skybet?

Apart from all the money they pay Sky to advertise on their channel, before, during and after PL matches?

 

[MadchesterCity]

BENT AS A NINE BOB NOTE!!!

have the club demanded the fixture be replayed yet?

 

[Bald fraud]

Yes. But it doesn't stop us playing through balls

Yes. But what if an opposition player intercepts a through ball and it ends up in one of those terrifying counter attacks! Prrrrrrrrrrrp! Best keep hold of the ball and just pass it side to side

 

[shaunsrobot]

I would go further and say that at this level—and this applies to coercion and manipulation at higher levels across every type of industry (of which I have a decent amount of experience)—bank accounts and bulging envelopes are actually an infrequent method. They’re messy, too easily traced, and often the least effective means due to the wealth already held by most people involved.

And, anyway, most corruption is far more mundane and obtuse than is depicted in films and novels (from which most people form their concept of it). A lot of it starts with well-intentioned but ethically question decisions that escalate in to much more problematic (and unintentionally complex) schemes, capturing more and more people at various levels as it goes.

We all make “brown envelope jokes”—I certainly do—but I think most of us know it doesn’t actually work that way in the modern iteration of the game. Not even with the fairly obvious example of corruption with Qatar being awarded the World Cup. It is far more complex and opaque, which is one of the reasons it takes much longer (and requires more effort) to expose the schemes now.

If you ever want a good example of how something can go from a poor choice based on fear of fairly minor consequences by a few to a full on, freakishly complex, international fraud scandal with massive implications involving literally thousands upon thousands of people, look up the recent Wells Fargo accounts and services scandal.

The sort of corruption I believe is occurring is the kind that develops over many decades, through many disparate and unconnected (at least at first) decisions made to develop an enterprise and then maintained and enhance it. Often the people behind the most egregious examples of such schemes genuinely don’t even think what they were/are doing is wrong, such is the fragmented nature of the network of support for most corruption that exists at the level we are discussing (especially in well developed nations when the majority of it is not clear bribes and obviously illicit deals).

It’s also a bit of a myth that corruption is relatively non-existent in western nations compared to elsewhere. That is only true when when comparisons are based on:

1) only straightforward types of corruption (again, bribes, embezzlement, etc.) being considered, rather than more complex forms like regulatory, market, and general financial fraud and improper influence/intervention

2) corruption undertaken by western entities outside of their own borders is ignored (a large part of the corruption that occurs outside of western nations is initiated (and sustained) by western entities, governments and industry alike.

I think those that believe English football is somehow different from not only all other major football leagues, but also every other industry on earth, are being exceedingly naive.

Then again, I think one would need to have that belief to actually enjoy football, so I suppose there is a real purpose and benefit to that naïveté.

In some ways, I wish I could believe it, especially as I become less and less enamoured with football by the month.

This is a wonderfully lucid description of how corruption actually works. Bravo! It's a big club, and City aint in it; they are above it.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

I would go further and say that at this level—and this applies to coercion and manipulation at higher levels across every type of industry (of which I have a decent amount of experience)—bank accounts and bulging envelopes are actually an infrequent method. They’re messy, too easily traced, and often the least effective means due to the wealth already held by most people involved.

And, anyway, most corruption is far more mundane and obtuse than is depicted in films and novels (from which most people form their concept of it). A lot of it starts with well-intentioned but ethically question decisions that escalate in to much more problematic (and unintentionally complex) schemes, capturing more and more people at various levels as it goes.

We all make “brown envelope jokes”—I certainly do—but I think most of us know it doesn’t actually work that way in the modern iteration of the game. Not even with the fairly obvious example of corruption with Qatar being awarded the World Cup. It is far more complex and opaque, which is one of the reasons it takes much longer (and requires more effort) to expose the schemes now.

If you ever want a good example of how something can go from a poor choice based on fear of fairly minor consequences by a few to a full on, freakishly complex, international fraud scandal with massive implications involving literally thousands upon thousands of people, look up the recent Wells Fargo accounts and services scandal.

The sort of corruption I believe is occurring is the kind that develops over many decades, through many disparate and unconnected (at least at first) decisions made to develop an enterprise and then maintained and enhance it. Often the people behind the most egregious examples of such schemes genuinely don’t even think what they were/are doing is wrong, such is the fragmented nature of the network of support for most corruption that exists at the level we are discussing (especially in well developed nations when the majority of it is not clear bribes and obviously illicit deals).

It’s also a bit of a myth that corruption is relatively non-existent in western nations compared to elsewhere. That is only true when when comparisons are based on:

1) only straightforward types of corruption (again, bribes, embezzlement, etc.) being considered, rather than more complex forms like regulatory, market, and general financial fraud and improper influence/intervention

2) corruption undertaken by western entities outside of their own borders is ignored (a large part of the corruption that occurs outside of western nations is initiated (and sustained) by western entities, governments and industry alike.

I think those that believe English football is somehow different from not only all other major football leagues, but also every other industry on earth, are being exceedingly naive.

Then again, I think one would need to have that belief to actually enjoy football, so I suppose there is a real purpose and benefit to that naïveté.

In some ways, I wish I could believe it, especially as I become less and less enamoured with football by the month.

Great post. Low level corruption exists in most major organisations. It can be as mundane as a boss turning a blind eye to expenses fiddling by one of his best workers or as serious as police officers turning a blind eye to one of their pals who is a murderer or a rapist. As many have said it is rarely about cash in brown envelopes.
There is an institutional bias in the media and the PL towards the bigger commercially valuable clubs and MUFC are still the main global cash cow for the PL. Without the PL PGMOL can't exist.
We don't know what motives Atwell had but I believe his decision was affected by the peer group pressure within his own organisation. I will never believe it was an "honest mistake" because he overuled someone who had a better view than him and made no attempt to check the replay. Many goals have been disallowed because an offside player who hasn't touched the ball blocks the goalkeeper's view and they are always checked by VAR. This decision can't be compared to other bad VAR decisons. It was not a difficult decision to make.

 

[LongsightM13]

Great post. Low level corruption exists in most major organisations. It can be as mundane as a boss turning a blind eye to expenses fiddling by one of his best workers or as serious as police officers turning a blind eye to one of their pals who is a murderer or a rapist. As many have said it is rarely about cash in brown envelopes.
There is an institutional bias in the media and the PL towards the bigger commercially valuable clubs and MUFC are still the main global cash cow for the PL. Without the PL PGMOL can't exist.
We don't know what motives Atwell had but I believe his decision was affected by the peer group pressure within his own organisation. I will never believe it was an "honest mistake" because he overuled someone who had a better view than him and made no attempt to check the replay. Many goals have been disallowed because an offside player who hasn't touched the ball blocks the goalkeeper's view and they are always checked by VAR. This decision can't be compared to other bad VAR decisons. It was not a marginal decision to make.

Yep its the ‘go along to get along’ culture that allows corruption. Look at the Met police today.

 

[bobbyowenquiff]

Yep its the ‘go along to get along’ culture that allows corruption. Look at the Met police today.

It always makes me laugh when people say we don't have corruption here compared to other parts of the world. In the last decade we have seen proven corruption on a massive scale in virtually all major areas including the banking industry, especially the City of London, the health service, the police, central and local governnment, schools and universities, the construction industry, the legal establishment......etc etc. Keeping your head down is the best way to progress in many organisations. Why should football be any different?

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Great post. Low level corruption exists in most major organisations. It can be as mundane as a boss turning a blind eye to expenses fiddling by one of his best workers or as serious as police officers turning a blind eye to one of their pals who is a murderer or a rapist. As many have said it is rarely about cash in brown envelopes.
There is an institutional bias in the media and the PL towards the bigger commercially valuable clubs and MUFC are still the main global cash cow for the PL. Without the PL PGMOL can't exist.
We don't know what motives Atwell had but I believe his decision was affected by the peer group pressure within his own organisation. I will never believe it was an "honest mistake" because he overuled someone who had a better view than him and made no attempt to check the replay. Many goals have been disallowed because an offside player who hasn't touched the ball blocks the goalkeeper's view and they are always checked by VAR. This decision can't be compared to other bad VAR decisons. It was not a difficult decision to make.

Atwell has been caught CHEATING.

At least his subtle disproportionate application of the LOTG for foul play, his application of the play on rule and overturning of a throw in prior to their goal ALMOST went unnoticed. Had he left it at that hardly anyone would have batted an eyelid.

Stupidly, he thought he could get away with giving a goal that was BLATANTLY offside, and he was aided and abetted by VAR. He fucked up BIG TIME, and now he is squarely under the microscope.

 

[LongsightM13]

It always makes me laugh when people say we don't have corruption here compared to other parts of the world. In the last decade we have seen proven corruption on a massive scale in virtually all major areas including the banking industry, especially the City of London, the health service, the police, central and local governnment, schools and universities, the construction industry, the legal establishment......etc etc. Keeping your head down is the best way to progress in many organisations. Why should football be any different?

Plus it would be the only multi billion pound industry in history to be squeaky clean
Everyone laughs at Italy and Juve etc but at least they manage to catch the bent bastards on a regular basis

 

[Betterdeedthan red]

Atwell has been caught CHEATING.

At least his subtle disproportionate application of the LOTG for foul play, his application of the play on rule and overturning of a throw in prior to their goal ALMOST went unnoticed. Had he left it at that hardly anyone would have batted an eyelid.

Stupidly, he thought he could get away with giving a goal that was BLATANTLY offside, and he was aided and abetted by VAR. He fucked up BIG TIME, and now he is squarely under the microscope.

Been caught cheating to benefit the rags doesn't count.
I do think one day it will all come out and they will be stripped of all the stuff they won

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

Been caught cheating to benefit the rags doesn't count.
I do think one day it will all come out and they will be stripped of all the stuff they won

One can only hope.

 

[Paladin]

Great post. Low level corruption exists in most major organisations. It can be as mundane as a boss turning a blind eye to expenses fiddling by one of his best workers or as serious as police officers turning a blind eye to one of their pals who is a murderer or a rapist. As many have said it is rarely about cash in brown envelopes.
There is an institutional bias in the media and the PL towards the bigger commercially valuable clubs and MUFC are still the main global cash cow for the PL. Without the PL PGMOL can't exist.
We don't know what motives Atwell had but I believe his decision was affected by the peer group pressure within his own organisation. I will never believe it was an "honest mistake" because he overuled someone who had a better view than him and made no attempt to check the replay. Many goals have been disallowed because an offside player who hasn't touched the ball blocks the goalkeeper's view and they are always checked by VAR. This decision can't be compared to other bad VAR decisons. It was not a difficult decision to make.

I think this is what we have with Attwell and maybe a few others like him, perfectly encaptulated by the phrase coined by @LongsightM13, 'go along to get along'.

I very much doubt that the corruption in the PL is the brown envelope type, as is commonly put forward on here. It is much more subtle, and maybe even subconscious in the minds of the referee. We have seen things like Ferguson presenting Webb with a United shirt with his name on it, presumably at Webb's retirement. We saw Ferguson laughing and joking with Clattenburg, minutes before an FA Cup final, followed by United getting all the favourable decisions and a win against Palace. Clattenburg again, going on holiday with the Liverpool team, so he could explain the law changes to them, then favouring them in the following season. Scudamore saying that the league needs a strong United. Nothing is ever said or done about it.

Attwell is a weak individual, who is toeing the line giving the decisions he knows will be favourable to his bosses, and will prolong his lucrative career. Disallowing a United goal isn't a career enhancing decision, and isn't done lightly by referees or linesman. They don't need to have received a secret payment to remind them of this. When given a choice, United and Liverpool will nearly always get the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think we are counted as a big club against lower opposition, although their fans may dispute this. But it's always the less glamorous clubs that get the worst end of the stick. Look at Wolves last week. Two highly contentious decisions going against them. Remember that goal by Everton, deflected in off Maguire, but disallowed because Gordon was in an offside position (even though he didn't touch the ball) - very similar to the Salah goal.

Could it be described as institutional bias?

 

[Stephen230]

Sky has no interest in Skybet?

Apart from all the money they pay Sky to advertise on their channel, before, during and after PL matches?

I clearly meant no interest, as in they are two companies now completely independent from each other.

 

[Stephen230]

Yeah he's a world cup winning goal keeper that regularly throws the ball in his own net. And it's not to help arsenal win the league it's 1 result

That’s not really answering the question as to why you “ think Lloris is open to corruption “ ?

 

[the blue panther]

Atwell has been caught CHEATING.

At least his subtle disproportionate application of the LOTG for foul play, his application of the play on rule and overturning of a throw in prior to their goal ALMOST went unnoticed. Had he left it at that hardly anyone would have batted an eyelid.

Stupidly, he thought he could get away with giving a goal that was BLATANTLY offside, and he was aided and abetted by VAR. He fucked up BIG TIME, and now he is squarely under the microscope.

And perhaps saddest of all, wasn't our Premier official, Michael Oliver, on VAR?
Shame on him as well.
Shame on the fuckin' lot of 'em.
As in the past, if we win something, we'll do it in spite of the cheating bastards.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I clearly meant no interest, as in they are two companies now completely independent from each other.

But Sky do have a vested interest in the advertising revenue they receive from Skybet, which could still be perceived as a conflict of interest.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

That’s not really answering the question as to why you “ think Lloris is open to corruption “ ?

Of all the positions on the football pitch, the goalkeeper is by far the player most open to potential corruption.

The Full Story of Bruce Grobbelaar's Betting & Bribery Scandal

Bruce Grobbelaar’s stellar playing career will forever be overshadowed by the 1990s match fixing scanda...

www.gambling.com

 

[LongsightM13]

I clearly meant no interest, as in they are two companies now completely independent from each other.

Not sure they are completely independent?

 

[LongsightM13]

Of all the positions on the football pitch, the goalkeeper is by far the player most open to potential corruption.

The Full Story of Bruce Grobbelaar's Betting & Bribery Scandal

Bruce Grobbelaar’s stellar playing career will forever be overshadowed by the 1990s match fixing scanda...

www.gambling.com

Iirc last goal Grobelaar or Segers conceded before the News of the World expose was scored by Peter Beagrie and all the senior City pros, Curle, Quinn etc were telling him to put his bonus in the players’ kitty because it ‘didn’t count’

 

[Stephen230]

Of all the positions on the football pitch, the goalkeeper is by far the player most open to potential corruption.

The Full Story of Bruce Grobbelaar's Betting & Bribery Scandal

Bruce Grobbelaar’s stellar playing career will forever be overshadowed by the 1990s match fixing scanda...

www.gambling.com

The guy said, “I think Lloris is open to corruption” Literally speaking everyone in the world is open to corruption. But he suggests he has a reason why he thinks Lloris in particular is throwing them in. I just wondered why he thought that.