PL charge City for alleged breaches of financial rules

Bluewonder said:
And it has done a lot of good since its introduction, hasn't it?

Not like we have:

Chelsea effectively asset stripped (sale of hotel) to meet arbitrary target;

Everton forced into a sale to 777 Partners and an increased chance of ultimate insolvency;

Clubs at the bottom threatening to sue one another for alleged rule-breaking;

A 6 year investigation into the audited accounts of a leading club and accusations of accounting fraud which appear to have limited evidential credibility; and

Continually changing rules to prevent aspirational clubs competing at the top.

Is there anything else I'm missing?
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The grass was to long
 
Let’s just start stripping the club of assets and pay off ffp erm sorry meant pay off the premier league oops sorry did it again! I meant pay off the red clubs…then lodge the profits to dodge next seasons assessment.

Think that’s the new version of P&S that will be passed soon -:)
 
Iassel said:
The PL quite literally have accused the club of fraud. What you say as ‘darent say the word’ actually = charged as written in the competition rules.

You can’t say with a straight face that charging with failing to file correct and up to date financial statements and failing to declare correct compensation figures for 9 years is anything but a direct accusation of fraud.


My suspicion all along has been that the PL ‘must’ believe they have something over and above what was argued at CAS as I struggle to believe that Adam Lewis would have advised the PL to move forward simply to rehash the same brief, albeit I concede that as those more knowledgable than me have said, ego can ultimately play an important role too.
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Firstly we've not been "charged", it's not a legal process. We've been accused of FFP/PSR rule breaches.

The PL have apparently been investigating us since 2018, & I suspect they were hoping the accusations would just fizzle out & be forgotten.

It's quite evident that the pressure to go after us was coming from the Red Top Mafia & Spuds, & that it was the Government's IREF announcement which spurred the PL into moving from the investigation stage to accusations & tribunal hearings.

You have your suspicions which you're entitled to, but the facts are the hearing & process are being done in private, so we're all essentially trying to connect the dots to form a picture, so in this respect everyone has their own opinion on what is actually happening.

In terms of fraud, I suspect if the PL use the term, they'll lose control of the process, as it will move from their kangaroo court onto a legal footing.

As such, neither HMRC, the SFO or the police are exactly beating a path to our door. Far from it. According to our audited & verified accounts, everything all is deemed up front & above board.

Even more curious, if anything the PL are accusing City of using our legally acquired funds to pay for sponsorship, to boost our ledger income, meaning we pay far more tax than we otherwise could have.

When has anyone ever heard of HMRC complaining of receiving too much tax revenue from legal sources?

Nah, there's a far more simple explanation. The PL & UEFA created FFP/PSR to stop City from the boardroom, because they've failed to stop our progress on the field of play.

Where they've royally fucked up is the very rules meant to nobble City, are nobbling everyone else as an unitended consequence of their determination to neuter us.

We crossed the drawbridge just in time before the portcullis was slammed shut. We're now seen as the cuckoo in their nest & they desperately want us gone, but it's too late.

Whatever rules they've created to stop us, will also affect everyone else, so they've essentially snookered themselves.

Like I said, what they've accused us of adds up to accounting fraud, so the question is, why have neither UEFA or the PL ever levelled the fraud term toward us?

Again it's about opinions, but in my opinion this is the key to the whole farce. In 2014, there was a comment from a City finance officer suggesting it was like UEFA were accusing us of fraud.

UEFA never responded to that comment & ten years later, the PL have declined to do so too. I'd love them to try, but it's obvious they won't, because the moment they do, the authorities will become involved & the PL's primacy in this matter will be superceded by the state.

So again the question must be asked, with all the innuendo of fraud & other accusations etc from the PL & UEFA, why have the state never been in touch with City regarding these allegations to our knowledge?

Could it be that there's a world of difference between breaching the rules of a private members club, & committing a criminal act as defined by the actual law of the land?
 
halfcenturyup said:
It depends which allegations you are talking about, imho. And what the allegations actually are. Proving an allegation doesn't automatically mean "knowing concealment" (proving fraud presumably does). And I am not sure a mistake, or a difference in interpretation on an accounting matter, if you will, is either as, if you believed you were in the right, then there could be no "knowing concealment".

Anyway, that wasn't my point. My point is that I have never heard that a tribunal process, as described by @domalino , won't take into account the limitation periods of the Limitation Act in its judgment. I was asking, really, for his clarification on that and his reasoning. He may be right, the law is an ass, after all. But I very much doubt it.
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If only there was a FAQs thread on all this...
 
Bald fraud said:
Oh well the 115 media onslaught might cool down a bit now. Unless we beat Chelsea Saturday of course
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Haha I guess you’ve not been on social media today?
It’s still out in force.
They’re happy we’re out of the champions league and now they want to ruin our title hopes.
 
Dribble said:
Firstly we've not been "charged", it's not a legal process. We've been accused of FFP/PSR rule breaches.
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The process goes ‘alleged breach’ to verdict after tribunal with nothing in between, to say they’re not charges is just window dressing which of course is your right if it makes you feel better.

Dribble said:
In terms of fraud, I suspect if the PL use the term, they'll lose control of the process, as it will move from their kangaroo court onto a legal footing.

As such, neither HMRC, the SFO or the police are exactly beating a path to our door. Far from it. According to our audited & verified accounts, everything all is deemed up front & above board.
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This is Incorrect. City already tried to get a commercial court to take it out of the PLs hands due to the overt nature of the investigation being that of fraud and lost resoundingly with the court ruling that the PL had jurisdiction.

The SFO aren’t going to come kicking the office doors in based upon innuendo. *If* City were found guilty and the PL have managed to find and produce such evidence as to *incontrovertibly* prove fraud, I have zero doubt that the clubs senior executives will be getting their collars felt in due course. That’s of course a pretty enormous *if*.

Dribble said:
Like I said, what they've accused us of adds up to accounting fraud, so the question is, why have neither UEFA or the PL ever levelled the fraud term toward us?
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And as replied, the PL charge sheet overtly suggests a long term, established fraudulent conspiracy within the club. They haven’t said anything publicly full stop,
bar the statement with the charge sheet, but you don’t allege a decade of fake accounts, fake employment contracts and fake sponsorships without openly accusing fraud.

Dribble said:
So again the question must be asked, with all the innuendo of fraud & other accusations etc from the PL & UEFA, why have the state never been in touch with City regarding these allegations to our knowledge?

Could it be that there's a world of difference between breaching the rules of a private members club, & committing a criminal act as defined by the actual law of the land?
Click to expand...
Because as above, they aren’t going to come wading in with their size 10s over simple innuendo, especially when the PL will ultimately present the case such as it may be for them publicly with the tribunal verdict sometime in 2025.

As to your last point, *if* City are undeniably proven guilty on the most serious charges, which would take something absolutely explosive to be presented by the PL that I struggle to believe they could ever have, it most certainly will end up stretching far beyond simply a commercial private members club.
 
I'm Blue said:
Haha I guess you’ve not been on social media today?
It’s still out in force.
They’re happy we’re out of the champions league and now they want to ruin our title hopes.
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Arsenal got a free pass because Ickle Citeh who nobody cares about went out
 
Dribble said:
Firstly we've not been "charged", it's not a legal process. We've been accused of FFP/PSR rule breaches.

The PL have apparently been investigating us since 2018, & I suspect they were hoping the accusations would just fizzle out & be forgotten.

It's quite evident that the pressure to go after us was coming from the Red Top Mafia & Spuds, & that it was the Government's IREF announcement which spurred the PL into moving from the investigation stage to accusations & tribunal hearings.

You have your suspicions which you're entitled to, but the facts are the hearing & process are being done in private, so we're all essentially trying to connect the dots to form a picture, so in this respect everyone has their own opinion on what is actually happening.

In terms of fraud, I suspect if the PL use the term, they'll lose control of the process, as it will move from their kangaroo court onto a legal footing.

As such, neither HMRC, the SFO or the police are exactly beating a path to our door. Far from it. According to our audited & verified accounts, everything all is deemed up front & above board.

Even more curious, if anything the PL are accusing City of using our legally acquired funds to pay for sponsorship, to boost our ledger income, meaning we pay far more tax than we otherwise could have.

When has anyone ever heard of HMRC complaining of receiving too much tax revenue from legal sources?

Nah, there's a far more simple explanation. The PL & UEFA created FFP/PSR to stop City from the boardroom, because they've failed to stop our progress on the field of play.

Where they've royally fucked up is the very rules meant to nobble City, are nobbling everyone else as an unitended consequence of their determination to neuter us.

We crossed the drawbridge just in time before the portcullis was slammed shut. We're now seen as the cuckoo in their nest & they desperately want us gone, but it's too late.

Whatever rules they've created to stop us, will also affect everyone else, so they've essentially snookered themselves.

Like I said, what they've accused us of adds up to accounting fraud, so the question is, why have neither UEFA or the PL ever levelled the fraud term toward us?

Again it's about opinions, but in my opinion this is the key to the whole farce. In 2014, there was a comment from a City finance officer suggesting it was like UEFA were accusing us of fraud.

UEFA never responded to that comment & ten years later, the PL have declined to do so too. I'd love them to try, but it's obvious they won't, because the moment they do, the authorities will become involved & the PL's primacy in this matter will be superceded by the state.

So again the question must be asked, with all the innuendo of fraud & other accusations etc from the PL & UEFA, why have the state never been in touch with City regarding these allegations to our knowledge?

Could it be that there's a world of difference between breaching the rules of a private members club, & committing a criminal act as defined by the actual
Click to expand...
Dribble said:
Firstly we've not been "charged", it's not a legal process. We've been accused of FFP/PSR rule breaches.

The PL have apparently been investigating us since 2018, & I suspect they were hoping the accusations would just fizzle out & be forgotten.

It's quite evident that the pressure to go after us was coming from the Red Top Mafia & Spuds, & that it was the Government's IREF announcement which spurred the PL into moving from the investigation stage to accusations & tribunal hearings.

You have your suspicions which you're entitled to, but the facts are the hearing & process are being done in private, so we're all essentially trying to connect the dots to form a picture, so in this respect everyone has their own opinion on what is actually happening.

In terms of fraud, I suspect if the PL use the term, they'll lose control of the process, as it will move from their kangaroo court onto a legal footing.

As such, neither HMRC, the SFO or the police are exactly beating a path to our door. Far from it. According to our audited & verified accounts, everything all is deemed up front & above board.

Even more curious, if anything the PL are accusing City of using our legally acquired funds to pay for sponsorship, to boost our ledger income, meaning we pay far more tax than we otherwise could have.

When has anyone ever heard of HMRC complaining of receiving too much tax revenue from legal sources?

Nah, there's a far more simple explanation. The PL & UEFA created FFP/PSR to stop City from the boardroom, because they've failed to stop our progress on the field of play.

Where they've royally fucked up is the very rules meant to nobble City, are nobbling everyone else as an unitended consequence of their determination to neuter us.

We crossed the drawbridge just in time before the portcullis was slammed shut. We're now seen as the cuckoo in their nest & they desperately want us gone, but it's too late.

Whatever rules they've created to stop us, will also affect everyone else, so they've essentially snookered themselves.

Like I said, what they've accused us of adds up to accounting fraud, so the question is, why have neither UEFA or the PL ever levelled the fraud term toward us?

Again it's about opinions, but in my opinion this is the key to the whole farce. In 2014, there was a comment from a City finance officer suggesting it was like UEFA were accusing us of fraud.

UEFA never responded to that comment & ten years later, the PL have declined to do so too. I'd love them to try, but it's obvious they won't, because the moment they do, the authorities will become involved & the PL's primacy in this matter will be superceded by the state.

So again the question must be asked, with all the innuendo of fraud & other accusations etc from the PL & UEFA, why have the state never been in touch with City regarding these allegations to our knowledge?

Could it be that there's a world of difference between breaching the rules of a private members club, & committing a criminal act as defined by the actual law of the land?
Click to expand...
Like the look of your jib sir.
 
Iassel said:
See below:
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The process goes ‘alleged breach’ to verdict after tribunal with nothing in between, to say they’re not charges is just window dressing which of course is your right if it makes you feel better.

And as replied, the PL charge sheet overtly suggests a long term, established fraudulent conspiracy within the club. They haven’t said anything publicly full stop, bar the statement with the charge sheet, but you don’t allege a decade of fake accounts, fake employment contracts and fake sponsorships without openly accusing fraud.

Can you show me anywhere where the PL have said they've charged us with anything? And for that matter where the police have arrested anyone for breaches?

This is Incorrect. City already tried to get a commercial court to take it out of the PLs hands due to the overt nature of the investigation being that of fraud and lost resoundingly with the court ruling that the PL had jurisdiction.

Now if City were truly guilty of criminal illegality which we deny, why would we want the law courts involved? It's not like the PL can jail any of us, BUT the law courts can.

The SFO aren’t going to come kicking the office doors in based upon innuendo. *If* City were found guilty and the PL have managed to find and produce such evidence as to *incontrovertibly* prove fraud, I have zero doubt that the clubs senior executives will be getting their collars felt in due course. That’s of course a pretty enormous *if*.

Because as above, they aren’t going to come wading in with their size 10s over simple innuendo, especially when the PL will ultimately present the case such as it may be for them publicly with the tribunal verdict sometime in 2025.

I suggest you look at the current police investigation into Angela Rayner. The Tories can't even say what they're accusing her of, but she's being investigated by the police all the same. Also, have you forgotten about "Currygate" already?

A tax expert mused at most they're talking about a possible undeclared £1500 from 9 years ago. City are essentially being accused of repeated cases of multi-million pound fraud over the last 15 years, so again where are the authorities booting down our doors?

As to your last point, *if* City are undeniably proven guilty on the most serious charges, which would take something absolutely explosive to be presented by the PL that I struggle to believe they could ever have, it most certainly will end up stretching far beyond simply a commercial private members club

*If* can move mountains. Neither Starmer nor Rayner, & now Rayner on her own were found "guilty" by a tribunal hearing before the police were called.

If the PL have the evidence, why aren't they alerting the correct authorities? Explain?

I suggest you're over-complicating the whole matter for whatever ends. It's this simple, if City have committed fraud, why don't the PL stop fannying around & call it what it is, & just like the examples above, why aren't HMRC, the SFO & the police raiding The Etihad?
 
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