EU referendum

EU referendum

  • In

    Votes: 503 47.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 547 52.1%
  • Total voters
    1,050
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hgblue said:
So, Merkel's options are?
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Same as always when the EU loses a referendum. Ignore it and engineer a 2nd referendum.

She'll offer Boris a Norway deal, knowing he cannot accept it. Then just wait for nearly two years. Once the possibility of tariffs starts to look likely, the hugely pro EU majority of MPs will call for a 2nd referendum. At which point she will offer a few concessions on top of those offered to Cameron, if there's a remain vote.
 
cibaman said:
Same as always when the EU loses a referendum. Ignore it and engineer a 2nd referendum.

She'll offer Boris a Norway deal, knowing he cannot accept it. Then just wait for nearly two years. Once the possibility of tariffs starts to look likely, the hugely pro EU majority of MPs will call for a 2nd referendum. At which point she will offer a few concessions on top of those offered to Cameron, if there's a remain vote.
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Interesting stuff. One things for sure a vote for Remain means more of the same. My take on the likely outcome of a Leave vote is that negotiations get serious. We won't be seeing the rather pathetic sight of the British PM going around kissing the arse of the Polish leader for some piddling concessions that nobody cares about anyway. If there is to be a second referendum, and I agree that previous experience suggests this is likely, then there will have to be some major movement from the EU on the issues the British people really care about. If not, the British negotiating team will have a mandate to proceed with exit talks which will give them a big advantage in securing a good deal for Britain. This only happens in the event of a Leave vote, which is something that should focus the minds of those intending to vote Remain.
 
cibaman said:
Same as always when the EU loses a referendum. Ignore it and engineer a 2nd referendum.

She'll offer Boris a Norway deal, knowing he cannot accept it. Then just wait for nearly two years. Once the possibility of tariffs starts to look likely, the hugely pro EU majority of MPs will call for a 2nd referendum. At which point she will offer a few concessions on top of those offered to Cameron, if there's a remain vote.
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This will never happen. If we vote to leave we will vote to leave by invoking article 50, there is no turning back. It won't happen overnight either, some estimates say it will be many years before we are properly an independent state.

Those who think voting leave will mean a vote to remain but force some reformed union need to give their heads a wobble, the ballot paper will be very clear on what this means and why your vote shouldn't be taken lightly... There will not be a second referendum.

There will also not be a Norway deal, we will negotiate our own deal based upon what can be negotiated, whether this will be better or worse for the country is anyones guess.
 
CityStu said:
Turkey will happen soon. They want it and key EU leaders like Merkel want it. The recent migrant deal struck will help their cause.

On the other point here's a quote from one of the EU's founding fathers, Jean Monnet:

“Europe’s nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people understanding what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will irreversibly lead to federation.”
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Your post is truly characteristic of the out campaign and its professionalism and over reliance on populist statistics, quotes and emotive rhetoric. Do any of you do any actual research, or just rely on a few select sites to provide you with soundbites?

The quote is fake.
 
hgblue said:
Interesting stuff. One things for sure a vote for Remain means more of the same. My take on the likely outcome of a Leave vote is that negotiations get serious. We won't be seeing the rather pathetic sight of the British PM going around kissing the arse of the Polish leader for some piddling concessions that nobody cares about anyway. If there is to be a second referendum, and I agree that previous experience suggests this is likely, then there will have to be some major movement from the EU on the issues the British people really care about. If not, the British negotiating team will have a mandate to proceed with exit talks which will give them a big advantage in securing a good deal for Britain. This only happens in the event of a Leave vote, which is something that should focus the minds of those intending to vote Remain.
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The question is whether any post referendum concessions are worth the two years of chaos arising from a government led by Boris and the pro Brexit Tory MPs. I doubt it.
 
roaminblue said:
Your post is truly characteristic of the out campaign and its professionalism and over reliance on populist statistics, quotes and emotive rhetoric. Do any of you do any actual research, or just rely on a few select sites to provide you with soundbites?

The quote is fake.
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Sorry about that - I'd lifted it from a comment on another site. However, the point is still the same; I just need to find another source to show that the EU's final goal is to be a superstate taking most/all of its member state's sovereignty.

I ask you what is the alternative endpoint for the 'ever closer union' spoken about by Juncker, Merkel, Hollande and numerous others?
 
CityStu said:
Sorry about that - I'd lifted it from a comment on another site. However, the point is still the same; I just need to find another source to show that the EU's final goal is to be a superstate taking most/all of its member state's sovereignty.

I ask you what is the alternative endpoint for the 'ever closer union' spoken about by Juncker, Merkel, Hollande and numerous others?
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"Ever closer union" is a proxy for "forcing the smaller countries to become more like Germany and France". Its a series of steps towards full union but without making the final step to full union. It will never progress from "ever closer union" to "union". Full democratic union where one Greek vote counts as much as one German vote when it comes to electing a government will never happen as it would entail a huge shift of power from the richer countries to the poorer. And the poorer countries will be unable to agree a voting structure that permanently locks in their status as second class citizens.
 
There won't be a second referendum if the first doesn't go their way, it sounds preposterous ! You cannot offer a referendum then ignore the will of the people.
 
bobmcfc said:
There won't be a second referendum if the first doesn't go their way, it sounds preposterous ! You cannot offer a referendum then ignore the will of the people.
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Presumably once the government has concluded negotiations with the EU to agree the relationship post Brexit, those arrangements would have to be ratified by parliament? The referendum result wouldn't give the PM a blank cheque to agree any and all exit arrangements. Parliament would be entitled to vote down those arrangements if they thought the PM had made a terrible deal, or a deal that was at odds with the expectations of the people at the time of the referendum. If, rather than voting down the exit arrangements, they offered the people a second referendum to ratify the agreement negotiated by the PM, they wouldn't be ignoring the will of the people.
 
cibaman said:
Presumably once the government has concluded negotiations with the EU to agree the relationship post Brexit, those arrangements would have to be ratified by parliament? The referendum result wouldn't give the PM a blank cheque to agree any and all exit arrangements. Parliament would be entitled to vote down those arrangements if they thought the PM had made a terrible deal, or a deal that was at odds with the expectations of the people at the time of the referendum. If, rather than voting down the exit arrangements, they offered the people a second referendum to ratify the agreement negotiated by the PM, they wouldn't be ignoring the will of the people.
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This is what makes it such a clusterfuck; We're voting on something most of us aren't well informed enough about. And that's not for lack of trying from many, there are just too many unknowns, with too much playing on fears of those unknowns.

If we had two clear and concise deals - This is what you get if you stay, this is what you get if you leave, pick one - We could discuss the merits and pitfalls of both and at least whatever conclusion that was would be the will of the people. I don't consider myself a complete idiot, but I can barely make hear nor tail of this situation with all the guff surrounding it. It's all 'If we stayed, we could effect change from within Europe' - No guarantee of that being the case, or 'If we leave, we could negotiate our own trade deals', with no guarantee of them being more beneficial than ones we would negotiate from within the EU. Or that our own Government would suddenly turn into the bastion of sense and good judgement, freed from the clutches of our evil EU overlords; Great Britain would be great again! Huzzah! Again, no guarantees if left to their own devices our Government would do any better (especially if they're attitude to the internet or mental health is anything to go by). Ah, but at least we can decide on them by who we vote for - Well, not if you think both Conservatives and Labour are useless, in which case you've got about as much control as you do over MEP's from Germany, or Greece, or wherever.

As with most times I take a peek under the curtain of politics, it never looks like what is the right choice, merely what is the least shit choice.

And if that bloke above has such a problem with the gravy train of Brussels he should have the stones to resign, rather than use an article to flog a new book that I'm sure could all be easily hosted on a website for close to fuck all if it's such important 'for the good of the people' information.
 
malg said:
If true, that's a shocking read.
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I noticed he could quite easily have resigned if he did not agree with it but alas no.
Anyhow, you can buy his book which no doubt is in all good book shops.
The Mail with an Outer, must be accurate.
 
KenTheLandlord said:
I noticed he could quite easily have resigned if he did not agree with it but alas no.
Anyhow, you can buy his book which no doubt is in all good book shops.
The Mail with an Outer, must be accurate.
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If he'd resigned, someone else would have had the job. Sort of a pointless protest, don't you think?
 
Citizen in Pakistan said:
just out of interest for those supporting out, why you want to be out, what are the advantages and drawbacks?
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1. To return the primacy of the British parliament.
2. To return the primacy of the British legal system.
3. To regain the ability to control the number of people coming here from the EU.
4. To regain the ability to put in place a sensible immigration policy based on skills not location.
5. To regain our seat on the WTO.
6. To regain the ability to negotiate our own trade deals with growing economies.
7. To have the right to say no to TTIP.
8. To retrieve the close to 10 billion pounds per year the EU costs us in membership fees.
9. To free our businesses from the shackles of EU regulations.
10. To hopefully make our European friends think again about the misguided path they've chosen.
 
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