EU referendum

[ROCKET80]

I think the 'weakening' of Britain as we currently know it is a real threat if the nation votes to leave the EU.

If the UK does vote to leave then I believe there’ll be another referendum for Scotland to leave the union which would be successful, the disappearance of EU funding for Wales added to a dominant Tory government with weak opposition would see the continued rise of Plaid Cymru and a debate for independence there.

The North and Midlands would largely be ignored as everything becomes even more focused on London and the South of England, and with a Tory government with no real opposition they privatise everything.

Or Britain exists, everything is great and everyone lives happily ever-after :-)

There are very few good and many bad arguments on both sides and I wonder if there is anyone in the UK who hasn't already made their mind up about which way they are voting.

 

[BigJoe#1]

First, let's not confuse illegal immigration with what's legally allowed within EU rules. I am sure you're not confused, but talking about being invaded "by lorry, train and boats" and "traffic increases after dark", implies *illegal* immigration and we can try to control that in or out of the EU. We don't need to leave the EU to do that.

Second, regards to the wider control of our borders and migrants from within the EU - over which we currently have no control - why don't we just keep lobbying the EU to allow member states to introduce some caps or limits in certain circumstances? Of course free movement of labout is a cornerstone of the EU for some and gaining concessions on this won't be easy, but I am sure a middle ground can be found. We'd need to allow the federalists some room to save face, so the wording would have to couched in such a way that those who passionately believe in the free movement can still cling to the idea that this is being preserved. But at the same time, some limits could be introduced in "special circumstances". It seems eminently reaonable to me that this sort of compromise could be achieved, given the huge public concern right across Europe at the moment regarding this issue.

Third, we should remember that the immigrants that have come into the UK over the past few years are in the main tax-paying and contribute billions to our society, as well as fulfilling vital jobs in the NHS and elsewhere. Yes, they pose a burden on our public services and housing etc, but instead of worrying about how to stop them coming, perhaps we should direct the extra tax revenues they are generating at schemes to provide more school and hospital capacity, for example?

Wrecking our economy (by leaving the EU) is a pretty drastic solution to a problem that can be solved by other means.

Agree with a lot of this Chippy....

I think people are more concerned about the immigration into the EU (Shengen zone) who will become EU citizens and consequently enjoy the rights of all Europeans.

The legitimate people coming here from Romania, Poland etc are paying taxes but they are doing work that British people could be doing, I fully accept the arguement about some British refusing to do these jobs but there are ways of making people work

This type of post perfectly encapsulates the dishonesty of politics today, the Brexit campaign keeps using that 90% and uses it in a way to imply that 90% export outside EU only 10% within. Now in this figure as I understand it they count businesses all as equal so rolls Royce and a two man window cleaning company count as the same, they also count all the companies - which is the vast majority that don't export at all. So local cabbies, shops etc whose sole role is domestic and are small businesses are wrapped up in a statistic.

The vast majority of businesses do not export anything anywhere (other than the odd tourist pound spent - of which no one would know if EU or not) also it discounts the fact that on the open market, with free trade and access directly EU exports will always be under reported anyway.

Fair enough EB2 but the local two man window cleaning firm and shopkeepers and cabbies are all affected by EU rules/regulations/directives, call them what you wil - even though as you correctly point out they have no interaction with the EU.

It is one of the biggest complaints (EU red tape) that small businesses in the UK have - it really does adversely affect their bottom lines.

 

[BigJoe#1]

And with the E111 you claim it back.

Who do you claim it back from? Seriously. The NHS?

 

[KenTheLandlord]

Who do you claim it back from? Seriously. The NHS?

Your EHIC provides you with the right to access state-provided healthcare that becomes necessary during your trip, and you will be treated on the same basis as a resident of the country you are visiting. However, in some EEA countries you may be expected to pay your bill upfront and then claim a refund afterwards.

Remember to keep all receipts and any paperwork (make copies if necessary). You or your insurance company may need them if you're applying for a refund.

Some countries also ask patients to pay contributions towards the costs of their care, such as for prescription costs, also known as a co-payment. This means that if you are visiting another EEA country where co-payments are required, you will also need to pay for this.

This is often non-refundable in that country and since July 1 2014 is also non-refundable in the UK. However, you may still be able to claim reimbursements for any co-payments made before July 1 2014.

For further advice, contact the Overseas Healthcare Team at the Department of Work and Pensions:

Overseas Healthcare Team
Room MO401
Durham House
Washington
Tyne & Wear
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE38 7SF

Tel: 0191 218 1999 (Monday to Friday, 8am to 5pm)

 

[BigJoe#1]

Your EHIC provides you with the right to access state-provided healthcare that becomes necessary during your trip, and you will be treated on the same basis as a resident of the country you are visiting. However, in some EEA countries you may be expected to pay your bill upfront and then claim a refund afterwards.

Remember to keep all receipts and any paperwork (make copies if necessary). You or your insurance company may need them if you're applying for a refund.

Some countries also ask patients to pay contributions towards the costs of their care, such as for prescription costs, also known as a co-payment. This means that if you are visiting another EEA country where co-payments are required, you will also need to pay for this.

This is often non-refundable in that country and since July 1 2014 is also non-refundable in the UK. However, you may still be able to claim reimbursements for any co-payments made before July 1 2014.

For further advice, contact the Overseas Healthcare Team at the Department of Work and Pensions:

Overseas Healthcare Team
Room MO401
Durham House
Washington
Tyne & Wear
Newcastle upon Tyne
NE38 7SF

Tel: 0191 218 1999 (Monday to Friday, 8am to 5pm)

Cheers Ken.... This suggests you need insurance to claim.

Forgetting the immigration question for a moment. If a person from say Italy or Soain visit here, they wouldn't need insurance would they?

Though I guess if you had a serious injury and required an air ambulance home it would probably be helpful, though again I don't know how foreign tourists stand in this country?

 

[SWP's back]

No point in using my full wit on a half wit.

Yeah mate good one. You've argued all your points well.

 

[mcfc1632]

I try (don't always succeed) to separate brexiters who are doing it from an anti immigrant, anti European, anti everything attitude caused by envy and a belief that division and blame takes humans forward and brexiters who sincerely (though I believe incorrectly) that the long term economic and democratic interests of the U.K. Will be served by the exit

I was not saying it was you that was doing the stigmatising - just that in the main in this thread it is the 'inners' that have been stigmatising the 'outers' in an unsavoury manner. It was the statement to the contrary in your previous post that I was challenging.

 

[blueish swede]

Not sure if your a Swedish blue in the uk or living in Sweden - if the latter do you have any theories why your neighbors either side of you have very contrasting fortunes? Norway I understand are very anti eu and I believe the second richest nation in Europe - Finland are now entering the 4th year of a recession and I read that many blame the euro for their economic woes and the collapse of Nokia - do you not see that situation as completely unrelated to the eu?

Norway will always be an anomaly because of the oil. They have invested the proceeds from the oil and now the investments provide more revenue than the oil itself. Together they provide about £7000 per head/year to the Norwegian coffers. That said the Norwegian Krone has fallen steadily since the crash which has helped a lot of other industries and meant that the falling oil price has not been felt as acutely.

Finland does not have the ability to devalue, or for the currency to find it's own level in the market, which is clearly detrimental to their economy. Their industry is weighted towards timber and minerals which suffer during a recession anyway and being in the Euro has made the situation worse, but I don't think it would be that good anyway. I'd agree with Finns who say it's a EURO issue - rather than an EU issue.

I think the situation in both countries would be a lot worse if they did not have free trade within the EU.

I think Nokia made a mistake in going with Windows rather than Android and they never recovered from that - they became the Betamax of phones.

 

[Tim of the Oak]

It is a little disappointing that the Brexiters are claiming to have been victimised - rather than debating the issues. Reading the last few pages I wasn't sure if a Scousers thread had replaced the EU one!

One further point, it was noticeable on the news last night that the City of London is overwhelmingly in favour of staying in the EU. I don't blame them!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

Norway will always be an anomaly because of the oil. They have invested the proceeds from the oil and now the investments provide more revenue than the oil itself. Together they provide about £7000 per head/year to the Norwegian coffers. That said the Norwegian Krone has fallen steadily since the crash which has helped a lot of other industries and meant that the falling oil price has not been felt as acutely.

Finland does not have the ability to devalue, or for the currency to find it's own level in the market, which is clearly detrimental to their economy. Their industry is weighted towards timber and minerals which suffer during a recession anyway and being in the Euro has made the situation worse, but I don't think it would be that good anyway. I'd agree with Finns who say it's a EURO issue - rather than an EU issue.

I think the situation in both countries would be a lot worse if they did not have free trade within the EU.

I think Nokia made a mistake in going with Windows rather than Android and they never recovered from that - they became the Betamax of phones.

Just to add that Finland has often been reported to have the best education system in the World. On side issue, the free movement of Finns in the EU has helped me to pass on some cheap or sometimes free City tickets. I can't say more than that lol!

Also, following on from Blueish Swede's helpful points, I know several Norwegians and rather than disliking the EU they are just confident in and protective of the natural resources they possess. Other Norwegians views may vary of course!

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Norway will always be an anomaly because of the oil. They have invested the proceeds from the oil and now the investments provide more revenue than the oil itself. Together they provide about £7000 per head/year to the Norwegian coffers. That said the Norwegian Krone has fallen steadily since the crash which has helped a lot of other industries and meant that the falling oil price has not been felt as acutely.

Finland does not have the ability to devalue, or for the currency to find it's own level in the market, which is clearly detrimental to their economy. Their industry is weighted towards timber and minerals which suffer during a recession anyway and being in the Euro has made the situation worse, but I don't think it would be that good anyway. I'd agree with Finns who say it's a EURO issue - rather than an EU issue.

I think the situation in both countries would be a lot worse if they did not have free trade within the EU.

I think Nokia made a mistake in going with Windows rather than Android and they never recovered from that - they became the Betamax of phones.

Ialways good to get feedback from people in the midst of these matters - I sense with the rise of True Finns that they may be pushing on the door for their own referendum in the not too distant future. I found it interesting how the Norwegians were also met with their own project fear akin to what the uk is experiencing in their 1994 referendum and the exact opposite occurred as they flourished since (granted the oil reserves have been a major factor but it does go to show what levels of bullshit are spouted in these referendum).

On the Nokia comment I made I made; I just want to clarify before monkfish edits my comments again to look like I was saying something else - I was just making the observation that the demise of Nokia was also a contributory factor to Finland's prolonged recession which has nothing to do with the eu!

 

[Chippy_boy]

Agree with a lot of this Chippy....

I think people are more concerned about the immigration into the EU (Shengen zone) who will become EU citizens and consequently enjoy the rights of all Europeans.

The legitimate people coming here from Romania, Poland etc are paying taxes but they are doing work that British people could be doing, I fully accept the arguement about some British refusing to do these jobs but there are ways of making people work.

But high unemployment is not a particularly big concern here in the UK right now. Of course if you are out of work (as I am about to be, incidentally) that may seem like hollow words, but it's true that of the many challenges we are facing, unemployment is not top of the agenda and it isn't high by any historical standards.

The bigger problem is the downward pressure on wages in the unskilled jobs market. But when you think about it, on the other side of the coin that means that employers are more able to keep their costs down, keep the costs of their goods and services more competitive and are more likely to prosper, create wealth, pay more tax, hire more people. A large pool of cheap labour is very good for the economy and if the economy does well, it helps everyone. We have more tax revenues to spend on the NHS, on welfare and everything else.

 

[crazyadi]

Let's be quite honest in a generation Britain won't be a top ten economy and will have an irellevant military (possibly bar nukes but maybe with nukes) whether In or out so alone I don't know it makes any difference. I am also not sure we can do what Germany and Japan do as Britains have subscribed to an American style look after number one mentality rather than the social contract mentality elsewhere .

Where did you buy your crystal ball?
I had decided that 3 or 4 of you inners here were just naive and a couple had no real argument so resorted to insulting people who want to leave a corrupt facist dictatorship. The more I read though the more I think there is an element of delusion.

 

[BimboBob]

Liam Fox got it bang on on Radio 5 live earlier. No historyonics, no ranting, just plain speaking.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Where did you buy your crystal ball?
I had decided that 3 or 4 of you inners here were just naive and a couple had no real argument so resorted to insulting people who want to leave a corrupt facist dictatorship. The more I read though the more I think there is an element of delusion.

You come into a post and talk about corrupt facial and wonder who is deluded lol?

You don't need a crystal ball t look at the way the world is going and look at actual trends and actual economic facts. Sovereignty as everyone talks about it is long dead. There are about two nations on earth truly sovereign as to be so you need to be able to feed yourself , power yourself, control your digital infrastructure , warm yourself , pay for yourself without external trade and also defend yourself against anyone, whilst having internally a growing sustainably aged population. It is arguable as to whether truly Britain could today do any of those and those they could do would only be by illegally seizing foreign owned assets . So it's a pipe dream by people looking for something that once existed and never will again.

I would be more interested as to why you think a century long trend is suddenly going to reverse and why the trends in the worlds growing economies will go the other way?

 

[Helmet Cole]

It is a little disappointing that the Brexiters are claiming to have b

You come into a post and talk about corrupt facial and wonder who is deluded lol?

You don't need a crystal ball t look at the way the world is going and look at actual trends and actual economic facts. Sovereignty as everyone talks about it is long dead. There are about two nations on earth truly sovereign as to be so you need to be able to feed yourself , power yourself, control your digital infrastructure , warm yourself , pay for yourself without external trade and also defend yourself against anyone, whilst having internally a growing sustainably aged population. It is arguable as to whether truly Britain could today do any of those and those they could do would only be by illegally seizing foreign owned assets . So it's a pipe dream by people looking for something that once existed and never will again.

I would be more interested as to why you think a century long trend is suddenly going to reverse and why the trends in the worlds growing economies will go the other way?

I think you are probably correct on this, but I don't think we should feel great about the march towards federalism. Many of us folk on 'Airstrip one' feel quite uneasy about this.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

You come into a post and talk about corrupt facial and wonder who is deluded lol?

You don't need a crystal ball t look at the way the world is going and look at actual trends and actual economic facts. Sovereignty as everyone talks about it is long dead. There are about two nations on earth truly sovereign as to be so you need to be able to feed yourself , power yourself, control your digital infrastructure , warm yourself , pay for yourself without external trade and also defend yourself against anyone, whilst having internally a growing sustainably aged population. It is arguable as to whether truly Britain could today do any of those and those they could do would only be by illegally seizing foreign owned assets . So it's a pipe dream by people looking for something that once existed and never will again.

I would be more interested as to why you think a century long trend is suddenly going to reverse and why the trends in the worlds growing economies will go the other way?

A corrupt facial! that sounds kinky...any links ;-)

 

[EalingBlue2]

A corrupt facial! that sounds kinky...any links ;-)

Gold! There he been some pearlers from this phone this week, especially the ones from the cross trainer

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You come into a post and talk about corrupt facial and wonder who is deluded lol?

You don't need a crystal ball t look at the way the world is going and look at actual trends and actual economic facts. Sovereignty as everyone talks about it is long dead. There are about two nations on earth truly sovereign as to be so you need to be able to feed yourself , power yourself, control your digital infrastructure , warm yourself , pay for yourself without external trade and also defend yourself against anyone, whilst having internally a growing sustainably aged population. It is arguable as to whether truly Britain could today do any of those and those they could do would only be by illegally seizing foreign owned assets . So it's a pipe dream by people looking for something that once existed and never will again.

I would be more interested as to why you think a century long trend is suddenly going to reverse and why the trends in the worlds growing economies will go the other way?

You are confusing sovereignty and being self sufficient my friend. We are a global trading nation with great people who help power this country and the world.

It's not the Stone Age we are all interconnected.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I think you are probably correct on this, but I don't think we should feel great about the march towards federalism. Many of us folk on 'Airstrip one' feel quite uneasy about this.

Don't get me wrong the March t a single digital world and currency, global corporates more powerful than governments etc could have its very good or incredibly bad points. I just think that Brexit has become a bit about putting the genie back in the bottle and one of the many reasons I am an inner is I believe the genie is out and we have to manage the genie there is no putting it back.

Sovereignty is a huge issue when the main tool of a government is tax raising powers and increasingly that is becoming something no country can do alone. With infrastructures sold off and controlled elsewhere be they power or digital it is now a world where no one has sovereignty. We are completely interdependent so why give up the power of the collective if the collective will still control so much if you are out anyway.

My main hope for the world is that the increased globalisation and visability of everything will one day bring more equity and I appreciate I am one of the lucky one