EU referendum

[kevin horlocks wand]

Coming soon from the Daily Mail foreigners cause cancer, the youth of today are all granny killers, left wingers eat Middle Aged women in hippy rituals, Muslims plan to massacre all Anglo Saxons on Easter Sunday 2018 etc etc

Lazy.

 

[sir baconface]

Not sure about that. If we vote to remain, I suspect UKIP will get a huge surge in support from all the major parties as being the only real exit party. Not sure if they can maintain it to the next election though.

To make this more interesting, there are police investigations into Tory election expense accounting in a number of key seats. One such is Thanet South, where Farage was narrowly beaten against many expectations. A magistrate last week overturned a Tory attempt to time-bar the investigation and gave the police a further year. He said that one possible outcome was the result being voided.

The article below is interesting, despite its source. It postulates that Cameron's win, and hence the EU referendum itself, might be invalid.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/13/tory-election-expenses

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Er, yes, they have. And being worse off *forever* is entirely possible. To *not* be worse off forever, would assume that we can bring more trade to the UK than the loss of trade with the EU that would result in a Brexit. There's no guarantee at all that this would happen, and therefore, logically it is *entirely* possible that we might be worse off *forever*. Doubtless the fanatics in the Brexit camp can't bring themselves to consider that possibility.



Hmmm, rather selectively glossing over some of the key points in A, I think. Would you prefer give be given £10 or £100? Or how about £10 or £100 and a punch in the face? Not quite the same question, is it.

You wrote -
A) If we leave, we'll put people out of work, raise prices, depress the economy and we'll pretty much all be worse off for the foreseeable future. Probably for the next 5 to 10 year and quite possibly, forever. Not only is this the projection of virtually every independent analyst, frankly it's bloody obvious.

You deliberated on the in/out options for a month, came out last week as in and have followed up that it is 'bloody obvious' that your exceptionally pessimistic view will prevail so not that bloody obvious really? - . The leader of the remain camp D.C has already gone on record stating the UK would continue to thrive and be successful outside the eu and the leader of the opposition for a completely different set of reasons is very much opposed to the eu -

The issues in play here are way more complex than your dumbed down conclusions to this. Not having a go at your decision in the slightest just your thought process to this conclusion.

 

[EalingBlue2]

You really don't get it do you?

The Brexiters are NOT a political party, nor, like the Remainers, will they ever be!

How the hell can they delver policies?

All they can do is demonstrate their interpretation of how thEU has not been good for this country, how we have been slowed down in our advancements to the pace of countries like Greece and Portugal. To give their interpretation if how much it's costing us and what money could potentially be saved through non contributions. They can highlight the impact of increasing our number on the under invested infrastructure and point out the it's taking weeks to get a doctors appointmen because if the lack of GPs available, how people are unable to register with dentists or get housing.

All they can do is highlight the potential that coming out delivers. How that potential us capitalised and realised is a totally different story, that will be down the political will of the Britush elected government - this group of people cannot make any such pledges. The person who should be delivering in this is Cameron! He's the PM, he called the fererendunm and he s the only one who can make any pledges or promise any Policies. The same goes for the opposition, they should be drawing up plans about what they'll do if we were to leave. There is no way, as a campaign group the Brexiters can do this!

That I will never agree with I cannot think of anything more ridiculous than making a major decision that could have huge effects without a clear understanding of consequences and without a sensible well thought out plan to deal with them.

I wouldn't jump out of a plane and only think about whether I had a parachute on, whether I knew how to use it and how I was going to use it after I was already in mid air!

 

[Tim of the Oak]

You really don't get it do you?

The Brexiters are NOT a political party, nor, like the Remainers, will they ever be!

How the hell can they delver policies?

All they can do is demonstrate their interpretation of how thEU has not been good for this country, how we have been slowed down in our advancements to the pace of countries like Greece and Portugal. To give their interpretation if how much it's costing us and what money could potentially be saved through non contributions. They can highlight the impact of increasing our number on the under invested infrastructure and point out the it's taking weeks to get a doctors appointmen because if the lack of GPs available, how people are unable to register with dentists or get housing.

All they can do is highlight the potential that coming out delivers. How that potential us capitalised and realised is a totally different story, that will be down the political will of the Britush elected government - this group of people cannot make any such pledges. The person who should be delivering in this is Cameron! He's the PM, he called the fererendunm and he s the only one who can make any pledges or promise any Policies. The same goes for the opposition, they should be drawing up plans about what they'll do if we were to leave. There is no way, as a campaign group the Brexiters can do this!

Good effort BigJoe but the only reason Boris is a leading light in the Brexiters is because he knows they are the Conservative Government in waiting if the Country votes out! Boris is really pro EU but that doesn't help his political ambitions at this time.

The public know Gove was a disaster as Minister for Education so it's probably better the Brexiters don't spell out many policies.

The Brexit sponsors want cheap immigrant labour so it's nonsurprise they fail to address immigration from outsidenthe EU!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Lazy.

You stick up for the lovely Mail and their guttural politics, support for facist politics etc if you like. It's easy to be lazy slagging off the mail they don't make it hard

 

[EalingBlue2]

I don't think anyone wants to give up the biggest trade zone in the world.... It's what comes with it, free movement agreements, political integration and bundles of red tape all of which were never voted for but were foist upon us, is what people want rid of!

Red tape, quality, production standards and labour standards is what keeps European industry in many areas afloat open to all inert competition from the rest of the world with no minimum standards would be the death of all the European economies.

If you think that immigration is causing pressure on wages now wait till you are competing on a level playing field against Bangladesh, Korea, China etx

 

[sir baconface]

If Brexit was in any way remotely serious and had thought at all with any intelligence or long term thinking about good policies for equality, democracy or any of the lofty ideas bandied around as a way of pretending it's not about immigration then I may even be on that side

Another lofty, sweeping generalisation. Most Brexiteers accept there will be more difficulties in the short run than if we stay in. It's precisely because they are concerned with the long run that they are willing to pay that price. You'd do well to stick with your arguments instead of trying to impute people are racist/xenophobic without having the balls to actually say such.

 

[EalingBlue2]

And if you were only having a clean criminal record and were TB free but had no Aussie Girl, would you have gotten in then? Sadly many of the immigrants that you're happy to allow to come here, come complete with impressive criminal records and major health issues and we are powerless to stop them if they're from within the EU!

With which local countries do Australia have such generous arrangements, such that career criminals can just rock up and say "this us now my home" I genuinely haven't looked into this but does Australia have a "Free at Point of Use" health system such as ours? A health system where people who cannot get treated in their own country can turn up here and expect and get treated on the back of British tax payers money?

The U.K. System is reciprocal so why paint only one side, I have benefitted myself from free treatment in both Sweden and france because of the EU. Some paid and reclaimed some just free.
What I just don't get is this absolute hanging on to the UK a completely arbitrary sized entity as being perfect and everything else a problem. I don't see the difference between a sick criminal moving from Belgium, Liverpool or Scotland to be honest .

Take out all the blinkered emotion and the hanging on to history, why is 65 million the right size? Why not 5 million or 500m

Seems rationally to me that 65 million is way to big to address the individual or regional needs but is way too small to actually be relevant globally or hold any real sway in trading blocks.

We need a stronger EU where it benefits to have scale and strength and much greater devolution . More power to Manchester , more power to Wales, more power to Europe and less for the middle man I reckon

 

[BigJoe#1]

Lazy.

Or desparate?

 

[sir baconface]

The U.K. Has long been the greediest country in the EU and historically possibly the greediest there has been, few if any have exploited the world, slavery, the natural resources we have , other countries on the planet I the industrial way we have . To leave the EU is to throw away the conscience and head for the lowest common denominator .

Bastards, aren't we? Are you sure Australia is far enough away to avoid contamination?

 

[sir baconface]

Take out all the blinkered emotion and the hanging on to history, why is 65 million the right size? Why not 5 million or 500m

Because the land mass is only a certain size?

 

[BrianW]

I can't help but think that a lot of people are being moved by the immigration question. This does not necessarily make them racists or xenophobes. They may have genuine economic concerns, like worry about competition from cheap labour. Is the minimum wage actually enforced properly? Frankly, I doubt it.

However, these people should be asking why the present Government has done virtually nothing to cut non-EU immigration. That is within the UK's existing powers and the EU has no say in the matter. The failure to do something about this strongly implies that the Government is actually quite relaxed about immigration. No surprise, since they are a rich elite and the general effect on immigration (if we exclude a truly gigantic improvement in productivity) is to reduce labour costs and increase property values. Essentially a rich Tory's dream.

I also fail to see how being out of the EU will cut illegal immigration. If anything it will make it worse, as the cynical French will simply wave everyone through.

Some serious thought needs to be given to this. You see, I just don't trust politicians. They will say anything to get a vote. Delivering on promises is a lot tougher, especially as most of them are incompetent clowns.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Another lofty, sweeping generalisation. Most Brexiteers accept there will be more difficulties in the short run than if we stay in. It's precisely because they are concerned with the long run that they are willing to pay that price. You'd do well to stick with your arguments instead of trying to impute people are racist/xenophobic without having the balls to actually say such.

I have seen xenophobic posts in here and have called them out, I can see an element of xenophobia in some of he campaign. What I actually see in some ways that is worse is people in the campaign who aren't racist or xenophobic but who are prepared to play that card to help win.

If there is even a short term problem then the UK is fucked as even a minor problem for the economy will push the debt up over GDP and make the scale of the real problems even bigger.

It's not even about Brexit it's about a society that has forgotten responsibility, that has forgotten about consequences and believes that by blaming others problems will be solved. I have never seen this work for countries or individuals but it is endemic today and it's sad that it will do harm for generations to come.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Or desparate?

Go on defend the Daily Mail, it's tax dodging hard right owner and it's disgusting hate politics

 

[BigJoe#1]

The U.K. System is reciprocal so why paint only one side, I have benefitted myself from free treatment in both Sweden and france because of the EU. Some paid and reclaimed some just free.
What I just don't get is this absolute hanging on to the UK a completely arbitrary sized entity as being perfect and everything else a problem. I don't see the difference between a sick criminal moving from Belgium, Liverpool or Scotland to be honest .

Take out all the blinkered emotion and the hanging on to history, why is 65 million the right size? Why not 5 million or 500m

Seems rationally to me that 65 million is way to big to address the individual or regional needs but is way too small to actually be relevant globally or hold any real sway in trading blocks.

We need a stronger EU where it benefits to have scale and strength and much greater devolution . More power to Manchester , more power to Wales, more power to Europe and less for the middle man I reckon

.... and the question about eligibility to enter Australia with a criminal record? And their policy to Free Healthcare?

Oh plus migrants driving down wages? Don't you agree that The majority of people coming here are relatively unskilled and actually pay relatively little tax.

Listening to people who have no problem with immigration, nearly every migrant sounds like they're a cardiologist, anaesthetist or a qualified pilot or an accountant. I have news for you EB2... they must certainly are not!

 

[EalingBlue2]

Bastards, aren't we? Are you sure Australia is far enough away to avoid contamination?

Australia is utterly contaminated by it. Thankfully there were some who weren't bastards from Wilberforce to Attlee and from the Quakers etc who turned much of it around.

but You can go and see some of the hell holes in the territory or the remembrance shrines to the completely exterminated aborigines of Tasmania too see the worst of British imperialism not that many generations ago

 

[BigJoe#1]

Go on defend the Daily Mail, it's tax dodging hard right owner and it's disgusting hate politics

Not defending the daily mail at all. Just agreeing that your post was at best ridiculous and worst bloody stupid.... take your pick!

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

You stick up for the lovely Mail and their guttural politics, support for facist politics etc if you like. It's easy to be lazy slagging off the mail they don't make it hard

I don't stick for the mail it was your comment which was as crap as the paper

 

[EalingBlue2]

.... and the question about eligibility to enter Australia with a criminal record? And their policy to Free Healthcare?

Oh plus migrants driving down wages? Don't you agree that The majority of people coming here are relatively unskilled and actually pay relatively little tax.

Listening to people who have no problem with immigration, nearly every migrant sounds like they're a cardiologist, anaesthetist or a qualified pilot or an accountant. I have news for you EB2... they must certainly are not!

For centuries immigrants have filled many jobs that were low paid, that has been the case since pre queen Victoria, the first generation does that be they Huguenots, Irish, Scottish or poles. Future generations become more imbedded and more professional and that has been Britains history for hundreds of years. It was true post war , it was true in Victorian times , it is true now. I don't see that change much whatever period I look at and the fact unemployment is down in the UK and people are filling jobs suggests it is very much still needed as it always was. Seems to me utterly irrelevant to Brexit too.

Britain like many countries doesn't need only those professionals, it's often window cleaners, factory workers, labourers, cleaners, waiters etc that are just as required. In the main most business owners would also tell you immigrants are often more dedicated, more professional and harder workers as well.