Leroy Sané

[Colin Bells Boots]

I don't understand these statements that a player should cost no more than X. There are no rules for how much a player is worth, the price is exactly what somebody is willing to pay, that can be between 0 and unlimited, and that is exactly what the player is worth at the time of the deal. This follows no logic, no rules and no comparisons. The discussions on here only reflect the limits of the individual contributors, and these are with a due respect completely arbitrary.

Far too sensible a post for this forum - it will never catch on.

 

[St.Pauli support]

I know and by caving in to it we are just worsening the problem for ourselves in the long run. Everytime we or another big club hugely over pays, the barometer changes and a 30m player is suddenly worth double that.

Yeah crazy. But don't worry mate, unlimited growth is impossible in the long run.

Many have said City have missed to bring more quality to the team after the 1st PL title.
Now - being a financial power in the market - you would prefer to save the money and wait a bit how players develop. Mhh.

I like your morale as I agree the system is crazy.
But in terms of market mechanism and philosophy of success you would be giving away your biggest advantage. Why?

Would our competitors follow that idea? Or would we just refuse to pay asking prices as a market leader and be happy not signing the best in the market, while hoping Pep could be successful with the current squad.

And finally: would Pep want to stay if we refuse to sign the players he wants to have for the title chase?
The owners of 'ManCity.com' :) obviously did their decision. Everybody is free to follow or not.

Back to the topic. Everything is said on this story. We just don't have a current overview of the facts and so the same questions pop up again and again.
I don't doubt Sané will be a City player by next Friday. And the financial terms disclosed won't be the full truth.

 

[Kompany is King]

Any significance to next Friday - 29.07.16

Yeah crazy. But don't worry mate, unlimited growth is impossible in the long run.

Many have said City have missed to bring more quality to the team after the 1st PL title.
Now - being a financial power in the market - you would prefer to save the money and wait a bit how players develop. Mhh.

I like your morale as I agree the system is crazy.
But in terms of market mechanism and philosophy of success you would be giving away your biggest advantage. Why?

Would our competitors follow that idea? Or would we just refuse to pay asking prices as a market leader and be happy not signing the best in the market, while hoping Pep could be successful with the current squad.

And finally: would Pep want to stay if we refuse to sign the players he wants to have for the title chase?
The owners of 'ManCity.com' :) obviously did their decision. Everybody is free to follow or not.

Back to the topic. Everything is said on this story. We just don't have a current overview of the facts and so the same questions pop up again and again.
I don't doubt Sané will be a City player by next Friday. And the financial terms disclosed won't be the full truth.

 

[jessery]

These transfers need to happen soon. I haven't gotten shit done at work in weeks. So everybody, shut up until there's news or I'm going to be stuck on this forum for the foreseeable future and lose my job.

 

[ono]

I don't understand these statements that a player should cost no more than X. There are no rules for how much a player is worth, the price is exactly what somebody is willing to pay, that can be between 0 and unlimited, and that is exactly what the player is worth at the time of the deal. This follows no logic, no rules and no comparisons. The discussions on here only reflect the limits of the individual contributors, and these are with a due respect completely arbitrary.

It's perfectly normal to compare values using similar teams and players of similar reputations and ability. Your logic could be applied to every single transaction in life, but in reality people are always going to compare fees and deals, especially on a football message board.

I would imagine fees, deals and value are all things Txixi is probably judged on. It's madness to suggest otherwise.

 

[domalino]

Maybe, maybe not. They'll be plenty of prospects who emerge between now and next season if that does happen. For the kind of money being reported, we should sign somebody who can contribute on the level of De Bruyne/Aguero.

I just look at us and compare our business to other clubs, and i scratch my head. Nolito and Gundogan are good buys to me (Gundogan is a risk given his injury history, but his quality is proven and the outlay on him isn't ridiculous) because they can contribute immediately.

Sane, Stones and Sterling on the other hand are all young players who may or may not go on to be world class, but will end up costing us round £45m each. Sane scored 8 goals and set up a further 6 in 38 games last season - fairly similar stats to Sterling. Stones meanwhile was in and out of the Everton team. Both Stones and Sane will most likely make it more difficult for Iheanacho and Denayer to get valuable minutes. I just think it's detrimental to what we already have and is a massively expensive experiment which may or may not work.

I could understand it if Sane and Stone and even Sterling were acquired for the kind of fee that evidently factors in the risk element of them not actually having the sort of ceiling we initially expect them to have, but the fees being touted are world class fees.

Embolo has just gone to Schalke for £20m ish, Dembele has just gone to Dortmund for £15m ish, Coman's option to go to Juve will cost about £16m, even Renato Sanches (which is also borderline ridiculous) even comes out considerably cheaper than the figures we are looking at or have spent. It's getting insane.

Your figures are just wrong.

Coman will cost Bayern £28m

Renato Sanches will end up costing them £61m

Martial will cost United £57m

So for us to complete a deal for Germany's best talent for £45m total, is a perfectly good deal.

 

[domalino]

Sanches cost 27m which could rise to about 38m should he go on and win boat loads and be a huge success at the club. Even that is at the top end of what a prospect should cost in my opinion. I think Martial has a tremendous upside and probably a higher ceiling than most prospects, but they massively overpaid for him.

Bayern have paid €35m and there are bonuses to take it up to €80m

 

[kupest]

Embolo is nowhere near the level of the other players you are quoting mate.

 

[TexasCityzen]

The part that confuses me, is where do all of these young prospects play? There are really only 4 offensive positions up for grabs on the pitch, correct? Aguero is a shoe in, KDB is a shoe in, I'd expect Silva to get a lot of minutes. Sterling, Sane, Roberts, Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko fighting for maybe 2 spots over the next 2-3 seasons? If Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko, and Roberts are all prospects based on their age, then surely Sane is as well? The fee being paid won't matter to Pep. He will have no allegiance. Competition for places is great and all, but at a certain point, it's excessive. Is Sane's potential better than all the rest? I'm not so sure...

Most people on here are guilty of it, myself included, but his isn't a video game where shiny new toys are required in every position, every summer. In a fairly tale world, if the Sane transfer was handled in a similar way to Moreno and Gabriel, we would all be pleased with the "quiet" business and there would be 40-50 pages, not 340 and counting. I'm not complaining, just curious to how some get all of theses talented players on the pitch. I do realize Gabriel and Roberts won't be available for 6-12 months, but I don't think that justifies the acquisition of Sane from a depth perspective.

 

[SWP's back]

Sanches cost 27m which could rise to about 38m should he go on and win boat loads and be a huge success at the club. Even that is at the top end of what a prospect should cost in my opinion. I think Martial has a tremendous upside and probably a higher ceiling than most prospects, but they massively overpaid for him.

Your figures are way way out.

 

[mosssideblue]

The part that confuses me, is where do all of these young prospects play? There are really only 4 offensive positions up for grabs on the pitch, correct? Aguero is a shoe in, KDB is a shoe in, I'd expect Silva to get a lot of minutes. Sterling, Sane, Roberts, Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko fighting for maybe 2 spots over the next 2-3 seasons? If Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko, and Roberts are all prospects based on their age, then surely Sane is as well? The fee being paid won't matter to Pep. He will have no allegiance. Competition for places is great and all, but at a certain point, it's excessive. Is Sane's potential better than all the rest? I'm not so sure...

Most people on here are guilty of it, myself included, but his isn't a video game where shiny new toys are required in every position, every summer. In a fairly tale world, if the Sane transfer was handled in a similar way to Moreno and Gabriel, we would all be pleased with the "quiet" business and there would be 40-50 pages, not 340 and counting. I'm not complaining, just curious to how some get all of theses talented players on the pitch. I do realize Gabriel and Roberts won't be available for 6-12 months, but I don't think that justifies the acquisition of Sane from a depth perspective.

In a season of circa 60 games, there's room

 

[I'm With Stupid]

The part that confuses me, is where do all of these young prospects play? There are really only 4 offensive positions up for grabs on the pitch, correct? Aguero is a shoe in, KDB is a shoe in, I'd expect Silva to get a lot of minutes. Sterling, Sane, Roberts, Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko fighting for maybe 2 spots over the next 2-3 seasons? If Moreno, Gabriel, Zienchenko, and Roberts are all prospects based on their age, then surely Sane is as well? The fee being paid won't matter to Pep. He will have no allegiance. Competition for places is great and all, but at a certain point, it's excessive. Is Sane's potential better than all the rest? I'm not so sure...

Most people on here are guilty of it, myself included, but his isn't a video game where shiny new toys are required in every position, every summer. In a fairly tale world, if the Sane transfer was handled in a similar way to Moreno and Gabriel, we would all be pleased with the "quiet" business and there would be 40-50 pages, not 340 and counting. I'm not complaining, just curious to how some get all of theses talented players on the pitch. I do realize Gabriel and Roberts won't be available for 6-12 months, but I don't think that justifies the acquisition of Sane from a depth perspective.

I think Sane is a bit different from the others you mentioned. I think he's being bought to compete immediately, because he's proven he can play at this level, whereas the others are being bought as future prospects that may or may not make it. We all hope that Roberts develops into a first team player, but he's nowhere near that level yet, which is why he's playing for Celtic, and not in one of the big 4 leagues. Zinchenko again is a talented youngster, but if he was anywhere near first team standard, he'd have cost a lot more than the reported £1.7m. He'll most likely be on loan this season too, and all of the rumours about Moreno talk of him going straight out on loan to La Liga too and the Gabriel deal is reported to involve him staying there for up to a year. So yeah, I don't think it's a massive deal. It's basically the Chelsea model of transfers. We'll bring in lots of talented youngsters, loan them out until they're ready for the first teams, and hopefully still make a small profit on the players who don't reach that level.

So as it is, we've got the following:
AM: De Bruyne, Silva, Nasri
LW: Sterling, Nolito
RW: Navas, [Sane]

There's a good chance that at least one of Navas and Nasri will leave. So that would leave 6 players competing for three positions, 3 experienced and 2 younger, and one in the middle, seems like a fairly good mix.

 

[JimmyNJ]

as

I think Sane is a bit different from the others you mentioned. I think he's being bought to compete immediately, because he's proven he can play at this level, whereas the others are being bought as future prospects that may or may not make it. We all hope that Roberts develops into a first team player, but he's nowhere near that level yet, which is why he's playing for Celtic, and not in one of the big 4 leagues. Zinchenko again is a talented youngster, but if he was anywhere near first team standard, he'd have cost a lot more than the reported £1.7m. He'll most likely be on loan this season too, and all of the rumours about Moreno talk of him going straight out on loan to La Liga too and the Gabriel deal is reported to involve him staying there for up to a year. So yeah, I don't think it's a massive deal. It's basically the Chelsea model of transfers. We'll bring in lots of talented youngsters, loan them out until they're ready for the first teams, and hopefully still make a small profit on the players who don't reach that level.

So as it is, we've got the following:
AM: De Bruyne, Silva, Nasri
LW: Sterling, Nolito
RW: Navas, [Sane]

There's a good chance that at least one of Navas and Nasri will leave. So that would leave 6 players competing for three positions, 3 experienced and 2 younger, and one in the middle, seems like a fairly good mix.

Where was Navas playing vs Bayern? I have a hard time believing he is good enough in possession for a Pep offense. Id see him more as a fullback hopefully. He works so dam hard tracking back as a winger seems to me a good fit, but I could be wrong.

I agree with everything you said. The youngsters are going out on loan for at least a year. Pep has a season with some of our players to decide who he wants to move forward with then bring in these reinforcements in year 2. I think with injuries and playing in 4 competitions having quality depth is a good thing. Is it possible if Navas leaves Aubameyang and Sane are our RW?

 

[Jazzman]

It's perfectly normal to compare values using similar teams and players of similar reputations and ability. Your logic could be applied to every single transaction in life, but in reality people are always going to compare fees and deals, especially on a football message board.

I would imagine fees, deals and value are all things Txixi is probably judged on. It's madness to suggest otherwise.

It maybe perfectly normal, but it doesn't mean it makes too much sense. Take Renato Sanches and Leroy Sane for example. It is 2 different players, playing different positions, being transferred from 2 different clubs to 2 other different clubs, under completely different circumstances. Nobody knows the actual prices of the deals, nobody knows any of the factors affecting why a player agrees to a transfer. To me this means comparing apples and bananas, not knowing any real facts, and I find it a fairly useless exercise.

The funny thing is that the comparisons are often done in such a way as to come to the conclusion that City and Txiki do not know what they are doing. It would also be possible to pick the random numbers for comparison in such a way as to reach the opposite conclusion. Take John Stones and the claimed 45 million pounds transfer fee. If you chose to compare it to the 30 million pounds Rio Ferdinand cost the Rags in 2001 it doesn't look too bad does it? You could even randomly choose to believe that the price for Stones will be 50 million and still come to the conclusion that the price is reasonable. I find it funny that so many people use these arbitrary arguments to conclude negative things about the club they claim to support.

 

[IcriedwhenTueartleft]

I don't understand these statements that a player should cost no more than X. There are no rules for how much a player is worth, the price is exactly what somebody is willing to pay, that can be between 0 and unlimited, and that is exactly what the player is worth at the time of the deal. This follows no logic, no rules and no comparisons. The discussions on here only reflect the limits of the individual contributors, and these are with a due respect completely arbitrary.

No, but...if you pay £75m for someone and he turns out to be a bit of a let down and you end up selling him on for £30m 2 years later then clearly that player was not "worth" it.
Someone can only be deemed to be worth it if they turn out to be a stellar signing, thus the £30 odd million we spent on Kun was clearly worth it. When you spend £50m on a player who is only 20 and has yet to do it consistently on a high level then it becomes more of a gamble, there is more chance of him of not turning out to be the bees knees than, for example, an established internationalist with a proven track record who costs the same. Sane might turn out to be the next Ronaldo in which case, super duper however he might turn out to be the next Jack Rodwell.
But you're right in the sense that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

 

[Jazzman]

No, but...if you pay £75m for someone and he turns out to be a bit of a let down and you end up selling him on for £30m 2 years later then clearly that player was not "worth" it.
Someone can only be deemed to be worth it if they turn out to be a stellar signing, thus the £30 odd million we spent on Kun was clearly worth it. When you spend £50m on a player who is only 20 and has yet to do it consistently on a high level then it becomes more of a gamble, there is more chance of him of not turning out to be the bees knees than, for example, an established internationalist with a proven track record who costs the same. Sane might turn out to be the next Ronaldo in which case, super duper however he might turn out to be the next Jack Rodwell.
But you're right in the sense that beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I think you are absolutely right. Really you can only judge whether a player is worth his price when he's been there a while. That's exactly why I don't understand how anyone can argue that a price is too high before we've even signed the player. What they are really saying is that they don't believe that the player is, or is going to be, good enough, which is in contrast to what Citys hopefully competent management think. Fine, anybody is entitled to their opinion, but I for one don't think I know better than Pep Bloody Guardiola. Why don't we just give Pep and the players he signs a little credit and see what they can do, before criticising that a fee, which we don't even know, is too high?

 

[ninjamonkey]

as

Where was Navas playing vs Bayern? I have a hard time believing he is good enough in possession for a Pep offense. Id see him more as a fullback hopefully. He works so dam hard tracking back as a winger seems to me a good fit, but I could be wrong.

I agree with everything you said. The youngsters are going out on loan for at least a year. Pep has a season with some of our players to decide who he wants to move forward with then bring in these reinforcements in year 2. I think with injuries and playing in 4 competitions having quality depth is a good thing. Is it possible if Navas leaves Aubameyang and Sane are our RW?

See this so much on here but he's in the later stages of his career so can't learn an entirely new position and he can't actually defend. Gets knocked off the ball for fun and finds it physically impossible to use his left foot. There's absolutely nothing other than his work rate and pace to suggest he could be a fullback.

 

[blinkblue]

See this so much on here but he's in the later stages of his career so can't learn an entirely new position and he can't actually defend. Gets knocked off the ball for fun and finds it physically impossible to use his left foot. There's absolutely nothing other than his work rate and pace to suggest he could be a fullback.

Also I like my full backs to be able to cross.

 

[ono]

Your figures are way way out.

The BBC have him at 35m Euro rising to 45m Euro. I haven't checked the Euro today but that will make those figures just about right...I think.

 

[daztrueblue91]

I think you are absolutely right. Really you can only judge whether a player is worth his price when he's been there a while. That's exactly why I don't understand how anyone can argue that a price is too high before we've even signed the player. What they are really saying is that they don't believe that the player is, or is going to be, good enough, which is in contrast to what Citys hopefully competent management think. Fine, anybody is entitled to their opinion, but I for one don't think I know better than Pep Bloody Guardiola. Why don't we just give Pep and the players he signs a little credit and see what they can do, before criticising that a fee, which we don't even know, is too high?

We can't have it both ways though. A big price tag comes with big expectations. Just look at the shit Sterling has got on here despite having a more productive season than Sane and all of the other youngsters we have been linked with.

We either accept that £40 million doesn't buy you a guarenteed starter and lower our expectations of said players or we can all be unhappy about the current fees of players.

Look at John Stones for example. He has all the attributes to make it at the highest level but lost his place to Funes Mori at the back end of last season. If or when he joins us, he is going to be competing with a much better calibre of player than he did at Everton. If Otamendi recaptures his form from Spain then we are looking at one of the best CBs in Europe. Stones, Mangala and Denayer have not yet shown anything to suggest they are at a level Ota and Komps have both reached.

Signing young players with great potential who are currently good but not yet world beaters and expecting them to perform like Kun or Vinny is unrealistic and that's where the real problem lies.