EU referendum

[AlgarveBlu]

Good job that EU immigration isn't a factor for me then, isn't it when it comes to voting out.

So there's a moot point. Neither am I an isolationist. No, i'm more the rejection of unelected Commissioners, TTIP, protection of banks, forcing a EU superstate, forcing an EU Army, the failure of the Euro, loss of diversity amongst European nations, EU Flag, cheap labour, rather than where a person comes from. Live and let live. I want Britain to trade not just with the EU, but with the world, unrestricted, negotiating with various regions, actually make our elected politicians and government work for their overinflated wages. Migration helps nations thrive but people also need to understand the negative impact of too much migration. Again, not saying I personally have a problem but I understand the logic behind the concerns of those who do (aside from those who can only see skin colour)

Norway seems to have this same attitude, hence why it doesn't mind accepting EU migration as part of it's continuted trade deals. I'm between an EEA and EFTA arrangement or neither, and creating one that is specific to the UK, just as China, Canada, Mexico, India, Brazil, South Korea, Thailand etc have done. I was once a passionte inner in 2005, during 2006-2009 I began having doubts, then I realised I could no longer defend the direction the EU was heading in. My opinions, views and arguements about leaving the EU have been based on fact checked information, I have had my opinions changed one way and the other many times due to lack of accurate information (from both sides of the argument), hence why i've reached the decision that I have.

I honestly feel the European Union is a relic of the 20th Century and has no place being associated with a modern Britain finding it's feet in the world in the foreseeable future. I'd like to see other European nations follow suit, the European Union dissolve into nothing, the Eurozone breakup and for all European nations reform it from the remains, not from within it's current corrupt, totalitarian state.

Good post - I wouldn't go as far to say I was ever a passionate inner but I was ok with the concept up until they started the path down to homogenising Europe with the introduction of the Euro - they had made some positive changes up until then - Very good article from the economist Roger Bootle (he is pro brexit) on the Euro and the EU and echoes what I have said from the outset -

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business...and-the-euro-this-is-a-marriage-made-in-hell/

in summary it gives a brief history behind the inception of the currency the effects and why it will impact the UK should it implode or drive the eu forward to further fiscal and political union.

I have posed this question before to the remain camp because so much of their campaign is based on the leave campaign not being able to relay what a post brexit economy would look like - the simple answer is we don't know it's just guesses at best but same question needs to be posed about the eu - how will the uk operate on the fringes of a federalist system.

Where I think the remain camp may have a point although I don't see it raised much is that the eu will initially make negotiations torrid purely to set an example to the other states contemplating leaving but ultimately money is a great equaliser in these situations and the eu is not in a position to take any more hits to it's struggling economies.

 

[MANC LOYAL]

Erm, im not sure if this is sarcasm, but you would hope they are united seeing as they were created with the single goal of exiting the EU!.

Two World Wars and One World cup and the German's are still telling us what to do. Its OUT for me...............................

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I think the poll of polls has the in ahead. Most people I speak to are out but I think the people around Manchester will be more out than in I expect governing by who I speak to as a very small sample. I imagine Scotland will vote remain and London and the south east will be in as well.

I don't think the polls have had a very good history though in recent elections, the key will be those who are undecided and how they decide in the privacy of the booths. I think the youth vote is vital for the inners as well and I think this time they will be convinced to vote. Hence the betting odds.

I really don't think turnout will be that high in Scotland - I sense some apathy by many voters there and they don't seem to be anywhere near engaged in this as they were for their indy ref - many seem to be working out various calculations on what outcome their vote could trigger another indy ref - Gibraltar is the only block that I know of that will be a slam dunk for remain at around 90%

 

[YPhrunts]

[QUOTE="AlgarveBlu,

Where I think the remain camp may have a point although I don't see it raised much is that the eu will initially make negotiations torrid purely to set an example to the other states contemplating leaving but ultimately money is a great equaliser in these situations and the eu is not in a position to take any more hits to it's struggling economies.[/QUOTE]

I've heard this said a number of times and it needs consideration although it won't change any minds. Personally I think the opposite will happen. Apart from a reversal of Cameron's concession on benefit payments which they have to reject because it goes against Treaty law and they won't allow any of the member states to meddle with the Treaties. It would bring the whole thing crashing down. So they will wait until after we have voted to remain and then reverse the concession. So apart from that initial kick up the arse I think they will treat us with kid gloves because they must be aware that UKIP could possibly gain influence at our next general election (pretty obvious isn't it) and UKIP will hark back to any vindictiveness to strengthen their argument next time around. UKIP have been a thorn in the side of the EP and they won't want to give ANY cause for them to increase in numbers (if they can) or have any further influence in Westminster. That's my take on it. I actually think they will be shit scared to upset us any more.

 

[Monkfish]

I really don't think turnout will be that high in Scotland - I sense some apathy by many voters there and they don't seem to be anywhere near engaged in this as they were for their indy ref - many seem to be working out various calculations on what outcome their vote could trigger another indy ref - Gibraltar is the only block that I know of that will be a slam dunk for remain at around 90%

didn't the Scottish referendum only get going in the couple of weeks before? This is just the initial skirmishes, not sure its got started yet

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

[QUOTE="AlgarveBlu,

Where I think the remain camp may have a point although I don't see it raised much is that the eu will initially make negotiations torrid purely to set an example to the other states contemplating leaving but ultimately money is a great equaliser in these situations and the eu is not in a position to take any more hits to it's struggling economies.

I've heard this said a number of times and it needs consideration although it won't change any minds. Personally I think the opposite will happen. Apart from a reversal of Cameron's concession on benefit payments which they have to reject because it goes against Treaty law and they won't allow any of the member states to meddle with the Treaties. It would bring the whole thing crashing down. So they will wait until after we have voted to remain and then reverse the concession. So apart from that initial kick up the arse I think they will treat us with kid gloves because they must be aware that UKIP could possibly gain influence at our next general election (pretty obvious isn't it) and UKIP will hark back to any vindictiveness to strengthen their argument next time around. UKIP have been a thorn in the side of the EP and they won't want to give ANY cause for them to increase in numbers (if they can) or have any further influence in Westminster. That's my take on it. I actually think they will be shit scared to upset us any more.[/QUOTE]


I agree I think uk leaving would be an utter disaster for the Eu countries as there are so many fragile economies in the eu and they would love to leave if they could. I actually think if vote leave wins the right outcome would be that would be a catalyst for a new Europe based on cooperation not coercion and one where the economic benefits of a single market work for all not just Germany and France. In order to go forwards you need to reject where it is now. Only then will people actually listen and do something about it and we can start again based on a fairer system. Voting in just gives the mandate to closer political integration and more powers moving away from he uk to Brussels ( which really means the Franco German alliance)

 

[YPhrunts]

[QUOTE="kevin horlocks wand,
Voting in just gives the mandate to closer political integration and more powers moving away from he uk to Brussels ( which really means the Franco German alliance)[/QUOTE]

Not just closer political integration either. They want to achieve their ultimate goal of a single European State. Megalomaniac Junker wants to push it further.

 

[blueonblue]

I agree I think uk leaving would be an utter disaster for the Eu countries as there are so many fragile economies in the eu and they would love to leave if they could.

That alone should tell the remain camp something, I`m assuming those countries would have made some noise in support of giving call me dave enough to have a genuine claim at getting reform instead of leaving him stood with his dick out, yet the PTB ignored them completely.
Which begs the question who`s benefit is the EU for if not the members ?

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

That alone should tell the remain camp something, I`m assuming those countries would have made some noise in support of giving call me dave enough to have a genuine claim at getting reform instead of leaving him stood with his dick out, yet the PTB ignored them completely.
Which begs the question who`s benefit is the EU for if not the members ?

There is no coverage on what Portugal, Greece or others think of us, it's not reported so I would not know. I am not sure many Greeks are keen on the eu though......

 

[BigJoe#1]

Erm, im not sure if this is sarcasm, but you would hope they are united seeing as they were created with the single goal of exiting the EU!.

Yes but there could well be "moderates" that are not UKIP supporters who would like to vote leave for reasons other than immigration (which is a tag UKIP own) but would be reluctant to so do in fear they will be (wrongly) tagged racists by ardent remainers who cannot or refuse to see and acknowledge the bigger picture.