EU referendum

[Tim of the Oak]

I am surprised that Dimbleby did mot pin him on this and remind him of his speech in Turkey in which he stated that he would be the biggest advocate for them joining and that he would "pave the way from Ankara to Brussels" -the real - if inconvenient - truth of his position

Dimbleby tried to pin Cameron but it was like reading yesterday's chip paper. It's now the turn of Bojo to explain his U turn on Turkey!

 

[BigJoe#1]

He did, Cameron responded by saying that at that moment he showed eminent positivity towards Turkey in order to bring them more in line with the Western world (a very important thing given their geographic location). He also said that if Turkey were to be able to join the EU right now he would oppose it, but that was a non-issue as it won't happen during his tenure. Indeed he went further and explained that Turkey were literally less than 1/30th of the way towards joining the EU from their application decades ago and that on the current timeline at least they wouldn't be members for hundreds of years.

He still refused to confirm he'd veto it (and there is a huge difference).... Why? We may find out after the referendum on Thursday.

 

[mcfc1632]

In 1945, the world was so unrecognisable from what it is today, that the state of mind of the participants of WW2 at that time is completely irrelevant to this debate.

I largely agree - just felt the need to balance the cheap, disrespectful and possibly made up comments of those that had been suggesting that a Leave vote would be a betrayal of what was fought for with 'factual' views - it might broaden their experience

 

[BigJoe#1]

Dimbleby tried to pin Cameron but it was like reading yesterday's chip paper. It's now the turn of Bojo to explain his U turn on Turkey!

He has done. He said in 2013 it was a totally different scenario and things have changed. Do you feel he is not entitled yo change his mind? It is different to Dave saying eight weeks or so ago we'd be fine outside the EU and now suggesting it would be Armageddon only when pushed to aceed that we'd be okay....

 

[mcfc1632]

II

You've repeated this point on numerous occasions within the last few posts, 1632. Everyone has heard it loud and clear.

I was replying to what I saw as shallow posts as I was reading them - being many pages behind. Hopefully when I have caught up I will see that they have stopped being so pompous and disrespectful.

Edit: caught up now - unfortunately not - just more 'worming and spin'

But guess I should not be really surprised?

 

[Tim of the Oak]

He has done. He said in 2013 it was a totally different scenario and things have changed. Do you feel he is not entitled yo change his mind? It is different to Dave saying eight weeks or so ago we'd be fine outside the EU and now suggesting it would be Armageddon only when pushed to aceed that we'd be okay....

Well BigJoe Dave has said the circumstances in Turkey have changed and the Turks are further away from EU membersip. Dave doesn't need to say he'd use his veto when Turkey have only completed 1 out of 35 Chapters required to apply for membership.

Why alienate Turkey who are a NATO ally by maning promises about a veto in a hypothetical conversation? Do the Turks really want to join the EU? They don't seem to be arsed!

 

[BigJoe#1]

Well BigJoe Dave has said the circumstances in Turkey have changed and the Turks are further away from EU membersip. Dave doesn't need to say he'd use his veto when Turkey have only completed 1 out of 35 Chapters required to apply for membership.

Why alienate Turkey who are a NATO ally by maning promises about a veto in a hypothetical conversation? Do the Turks really want to join the EU? They don't seem to be arsed!

Two things Tim... First, he could have killed the arguement but didn't, why not? I feel he could have gained more ground and votes for the Remain campaign if he had done, his loss. Yphrunts got it right, he didn't want to alienate himself from getting a cozy number in Brussells in a couple if years time when he stands down, or he knows he will be asked to accept Turkey and he has made some kind of back room deal confirming that he wouldn't veto it... maybe to get his (ahem) "changes" through.

As for Turkey, they will have unfettered access to the Shengen zone very soon. To the average man in the street, that is as good as Turkey being a member. It's only a matter of time before the UK will be forced to accept Turkish citixzens into our country, albeit they will have to gave passport checks, they will enjoy the same rights as the general EU citizen enjoys. Wait and see!

 

[Zuriblue]

Just looking at how much the UK sends to the EU as a proportion of national expenditure (rather than the £350m that the Leavers claim.) 0.37%. 4.1% goes to "too big to fail" banks.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

This Turkey veto criticism is daft - it's straw man criticism for criticism's sake.
No leader in his right mind promises to do something when he doesn't need to. An answer of "it won't happen" seems pretty reasonable to me, as it turns into hypothesis.
All making a prmise would do is harm international relations, and possibly put Turkey off reforming in the EU image.

 

[Deleted member 58678]

This Turkey veto criticism is daft - it's straw man criticism for criticism's sake.
No leader in his right mind promises to do something when he doesn't need to. An answer of "it won't happen" seems pretty reasonable to me, as it turns into hypothesis.
All making a prmise would do is harm international relations, and possibly put Turkey off reforming in the EU image.

It's one of the most ridiculous hypothetical questions I bet he's ever been asked.

 

[BlueHammer85]

Why the leave campaign are still harpering on about Turkey I do not know. They have much bigger weapons in there armoury to go with yet still keep bringing up Turkey and making themselves look like hateful idiots.

 

[mcfc1632]

How long will need to pass before all the migrants Merkel welcomed in to satisfy the need of Germany for increased workforce become EU citizens and the are able to onward relocate within the EU with the UK being an attractive and valid option?

Now come back to Turkey - the EU are already in discussions (have been for some time) and are close to agreeing free movement of Turkey's citizens across the Schengen area - again into the future when will they be given EU citizenship if/when they settle? And then be able to onward relocate.

Erdogan has been running rings around the EU and the EU are particularly frustrated with the way he does not budge on key areas that impact the 35 criteria that need to be met - but at the end of the day he has the EU over a barrel with the migrants issue and they will buckle. Despite the UK not being in the Schengen area this does not necessarily mean we will be 'protected' in the future.

Much 'EU business' has been left to after the 23rd - I wonder if Cameron knows just how quickly progress will be made with Turkey over the summer? Of course, in the manner in which the EU operates, this will not be 'membership' and therefore 'vetoes' will not be a risk - but I would not be surprised to see a ever-creeping 'closeness of working ................'

Cameron will be able to declare of course that it is not membership - and therefore he did not mislead the UK...............

 

[Blue Til Death]

Maybe its got something to do with Cameron standing up in Parliament recently, stating not only that he welcomed the Inclusion of Turkey into the EU but that their entry should be fast tracked and he would do everything he could to support it..! Now all of a sudden its decades away or will never happen...!

 

[BigJoe#1]

Eureka!!! I have heard the first arguement from an Remain supporter about a benefit of being in the EU, but t went something like this.....

If you're a football team playing a game and you have eleven players on your team, pre EU the competition (other countries) would turn up and field fifteen men and bring their own rule book and a spare couple of balls for them to score with, it was unfair. The EU has created fairness by ensuring that there is a level playing field for all to abide by.... well in principle at least. That I can accept as being a benefit of being in the EU.

I still don't agree we need to pay £173m a week nett for that, though I'm sure others will give me similar simple examples of benefits that justify the money.

So far i have two benefits and I only want to focus on the clear unambiguous benefits of remaining:

1. Access to 500m customers
2. Working on a level playing field (though I could argue this point, in principle I'm prepared to accept it for now)

Next.....

 

[Mancini Manus Domini]

It's interesting to see the vote at the top of this thread. For some time now the lead 'Leave' has over 'Remain' has been narrowing.

I haven't been following the total number of votes so not sure if Bluemooners have changed their minds or if it is undecided finally coming to the party.

 

[BigJoe#1]

It's interesting to see the vote at the top of this thread. For some time now the lead 'Leave' has over 'Remain' has been narrowing.

I haven't been following the total number of votes so not sure if Bluemooners have changed their minds or if it is undecided finally coming to the party.

I have been watching closely, support number for both sides seem to be growing so it appears the undecideds are begining to make up their minds. It is currently the closest it's been for at least a fortnight. I am guessing this thread vote will be within a fine margin of the actual vote.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

It's one of the most ridiculous hypothetical questions I bet he's ever been asked.

I might not go that far!

What it is is good politics from Cameron, and reductive populism of an issue for anyone who uses that particular argument for Remain. It is fundamentally bad politics to give an answer.

Cameron thinking Turkey's integration is a long way off does not contradict a preferred option of fasttracking. Those two are not absolute opposites.

Blimey, I find myself defending Cameron. I'll just nip off and have a word with myself.

 

[Mancini Manus Domini]

I have been watching closely, support number for both sides seem to be growing so it appears the undecideds are begining to make up their minds. It is currently the closest it's been for at least a fortnight. I am guessing this thread vote will be within a fine margin of the actual vote.

If both sides of the campaign arguements are radical, and accuse the otherside of being radical, then does an 'undecided' stick with what they know or take a chance.

My guess is more undecided will vote for the status qou than change as it's human nature. As a 'Remainer' that's what i'm hoping will happen.

 

[Ancient Citizen]

Two things Tim... First, he could have killed the arguement but didn't, why not? I feel he could have gained more ground and votes for the Remain campaign if he had done, his loss. Yphrunts got it right, he didn't want to alienate himself from getting a cozy number in Brussells in a couple if years time when he stands down, or he knows he will be asked to accept Turkey and he has made some kind of back room deal confirming that he wouldn't veto it... maybe to get his (ahem) "changes" through.

As for Turkey, they will have unfettered access to the Shengen zone very soon. To the average man in the street, that is as good as Turkey being a member. It's only a matter of time before the UK will be forced to accept Turkish citixzens into our country, albeit they will have to gave passport checks, they will enjoy the same rights as the general EU citizen enjoys. Wait and see!

When Turkey is mentioned, why is it that the remain camp frantically scramble to reassure us all and try to assuage fears by saying 'They'll not get in for 39/40/50 years,
if ever, so no need to worry?' They are apparently, pro immigration from anywhere, so what's the problem if millions of Turks arrive here, they've embraced Romania and Bulgaria,
sending tens of thousands here every year, why the hatred for the Turks?

 

[BigJoe#1]

If both sides of the campaign arguements are radical, and accuse the otherside of being radical, then does an 'undecided' stick with what they know or take a chance.

My guess is more undecided will vote for the status qou than change as it's human nature. As a 'Remainer' that's what i'm hoping will happen.

I agree regarding undecideds that do vote will more than likely othe for the status quo.