EU referendum

[EalingBlue2]

If the sole measure is financial benefit, then yes. At what population level do we feel a teensy bit overcrowded, infrastructure over-stretched and the environment spoiled: 80 million, 100 million?

The sole benefit for me as it should be with everything is the furtherance of human good!

Britain can turn its back on immigration , free, market and growth but only if it is prepared to turn its back on rampant commercialism, increased consumption, increased spending etc. there is not the slightest sign more than a wee fraction are prepared to make these calls, pay more for goods, forgo sating today's wants for tomorrow's needs so with that in mind people are going to have to live with the effects of capitalism and expansion.

Te irony is many of the same people peddling the capitalist agenda and the survival of the fittest economic ideology are the very same people who rally against immigration - it's quite funny. Our services are stretched because too many people put a better car badge over their fellow humans, our environment is spoiled because our whole society is based around our wants and demanding them now no matter what the future. If you thing immigrants are spoiling our services and environment and not selfish people and their behaviours then you really had fallen for it all hook line and sinker .

I am not a moral crusader (well sometimes to be fair) and am guilty of much of this myself but at least I know it is me at fault and don't try and pretend it is the Portuguese lass working in the local cafe whose footprint on the world is a fraction of my own

 

[EalingBlue2]

Give over pmsl.

It's a very very basic Tenet of the way our world works, you can ignore economic reality , pursuit of the short term and globalisation but honestly it's the equivalent of Those who rallied against electricity or possibly even the wheel. It's why our governments spend so much time on the third world, not because we care but because this is the long term growth of the worlds economy.

 

[Balti]

ahhhh some good old fashioned anti-british sentiment

let me guess.....

vote remain??

 

[sir baconface]

The sole benefit for me as it should be with everything is the furtherance of human good!

Britain can turn its back on immigration , free, market and growth but only if it is prepared to turn its back on rampant commercialism, increased consumption, increased spending etc. there is not the slightest sign more than a wee fraction are prepared to make these calls, pay more for goods, forgo sating today's wants for tomorrow's needs so with that in mind people are going to have to live with the effects of capitalism and expansion.

Te irony is many of the same people peddling the capitalist agenda and the survival of the fittest economic ideology are the very same people who rally against immigration - it's quite funny. Our services are stretched because too many people put a better car badge over their fellow humans, our environment is spoiled because our whole society is based around our wants and demanding them now no matter what the future. If you thing immigrants are spoiling our services and environment and not selfish people and their behaviours then you really had fallen for it all hook line and sinker .

I am not a moral crusader (well sometimes to be fair) and am guilty of much of this myself but at least I know it is me at fault and don't try and pretend it is the Portuguese lass working in the local cafe whose footprint on the world is a fraction of my own

Far too black and white. There are plenty of compromise positions between the extremes and not everyone is driven by naked greed. There are actually individuals who care about the environment.

And don't patronise me with your hook, line and sinker jibe. I thought you were a better poster than that.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Far too black and white. There are plenty of compromise positions between the extremes and not everyone is driven by naked greed. There are actually individuals who care about the environment.

And don't patronise me with your hook, line and sinker jibe. I thought you were a better poster than that.

It is black and white, the destruction of the environment is all about economics and all that is driven by that comes from a small part of the world and a small part of the population. Look at the UK, look at what people think hardship is, look at people worrying more about ther car badge than the future, rampant commercialism. I don't believe it can be ended either am way too realistic for that. All we can do is try to curb the excesses, invest in innovation and technology to save the planet, support strong universal education and health to help the weakest and give all a chance. But there is no turning back.

Hook line and sinker may be harsh but I am fed up of people blaming immigrants rather than our own short termism and greed for the problems of the world

Yes there are compromises it's just the picture is far more black than white and even those who are on the right side of the argument are probably actually on the wrong side as most are guilty of the same issues only to a lesser extent

 

[EalingBlue2]

To

ahhhh some good old fashioned anti-british sentiment

let me guess.....

vote remain??

To be fair the Brexit is as anti British as it gets as it will be The end of Britain. Anti southern English songs would have been more appropriate for an inner

 

[EalingBlue2]

I got three lines in and read this

Why do we tie ourselves to the one part of the world that is not experiencing significant economic growth? The eurozone, incredibly, was the same size at the end of last year as it was in 2006.

Seems at odds with another Brexit propaganda machine the trollograph

The eurozone “defied pessimism” at the start of the year, as the currency bloc’s economic size finally reached a level it last hit in 2008.
Euro area GDP rose at a surprisingly strong 0.6pc in the three months to March, according to Eurostat. The pace of growth was twice as strong as that witnessed in the final quarter of last year.

Who is telling porkies?

Why do we tie ourselves to our neighbours and our near markets and those who want to work with us? Hmmmmm I wonder.....

 

[Mancini Manus Domini]

So the majority of England vote leave but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote stay. What then? Devolution and the break up of the union?

 

[Monkfish]

So the majority of England vote leave but Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland vote stay. What then? Devolution and the break up of the union?

Scotland leaves, Wales probably not until they realise that the UK has become a one party state, and northern Ireland could have real serious consequences such as an increase in sectarianism

Other than Scotland leaves the rest is guesswork

 

[Mancini Manus Domini]

Scotland leaves, Wales probably not until they realise that the UK has become a one party state, and northern Ireland could have real serious consequences such as an increase in sectarianism

Other than Scotland leaves the rest is guesswork

A great deal of uncertainty though. As you say, Wales may follow Scotland in time.

Will it still be called the United Kingdom if Scotland leaves?

Many of those advocating Brexit, British exit, have a notion of Britain becoming great again with independence but how much of Britain will be left? Maybe it should just be termed Exit.

 

[hgblue]

A great deal of uncertainty though. As you say, Wales may follow Scotland in time.

Will it still be called the United Kingdom if Scotland leaves?

Many of those advocating Brexit, British exit, have a notion of Britain becoming great again with independence but how much of Britain will be left? Maybe it should just be termed Exit.

The whole point of Brexit is self determination and democracy. If a majority of the Scottish people no longer wish to be part of the union then so be it. Regardless of the EU referendum the SNP will have their second referendum sooner or later anyway.

 

[coleridge]

ahhhh some good old fashioned anti-british sentiment

let me guess.....

vote remain??

The first couple of SLF albums are expressions of anger and frustration at both the British Army/RUC and the paramilitaries on both sides. Four lads from West Belfast making completely valid points on their lives during 'the troubles'. Burns went on to work for the BBC and SLF are now a British Institution.

As for Brexit, my concerns would be economic uncertainty and a rabid nationalist government. The EU is not perfect and mass immigration is a concern for everyone,including those millions of us of immigrant descent.We are mostly children of the Empire. The new immigrants don't have the same connection or feeling for Britishness.

Sadly, it seems impossible to know what to do. The Establishment-supporting media are busy lecturing us on what to say and think. The last few days are a great example of that. I get PMs complaining about the right wing bullying on this forum. I also get asked to assist others who face smear campaigns that prevent them appearing on TV and Radio. The fight for freedom of expression goes on.

I believe that everyone has the right to speak out. Even Trump [I've softened on him for some reason]! A couple of million Muslim voters are going to be hugely influential at the ballot box and not a few thousand fanatics, despite their screaming supporters in the media. The people will decide and not the likes of Murdoch. Viva La Revolution!

 

[YPhrunts]

The whole point of Brexit is self determination and democracy. If a majority of the Scottish people no longer wish to be part of the union then so be it. Regardless of the EU referendum the SNP will have their second referendum sooner or later anyway.

I don't believe that when push comes to shove the Scots will vote for independence in a second vote. Most Scots have been through a decent enough education for them to weigh up the problems that come with independence. What would be the point of rejecting the notion of a united Kingdom to replace it with EU federalism? They do alright out of the UK at the moment. There is no guarantee that they wouldn't become the next Greece if they turned their back on the pound and accepted the Euro. The SNP are in a bubble of nationalsitic popularity at the moment and if they don't want to make themselves irrelevant then they need to just stay as a moaning group who feel hard done by. They won't have that luxury inside the EU on their own. Sturgeon and Salmond are not that stupid not to see it surely? And the Scots certainly won't be that stupid once the reality of their situation confronts them for real.
And that's even before we get to a possible quota of migrants being foisted on Scotland as a condition of schengen membership. Sturgeon might swallow it but I doubt the Scots will take to it kindly. They're canny people.

 

[whp.blue]

The whole point of Brexit is self determination and democracy. If a majority of the Scottish people no longer wish to be part of the union then so be it. Regardless of the EU referendum the SNP will have their second referendum sooner or later anyway.

This may be the only way the English ever get to Vote on Independence. I think if people push the break up of the union and what the Scots may or may not do It will only strengthen the out vote

 

[EalingBlue2]

I don't believe that when push comes to shove the Scots will vote for independence in a second vote. Most Scots have been through a decent enough education for them to weigh up the problems that come with independence. What would be the point of rejecting the notion of a united Kingdom to replace it with EU federalism? They do alright out of the UK at the moment. There is no guarantee that they wouldn't become the next Greece if they turned their back on the pound and accepted the Euro. The SNP are in a bubble of nationalsitic popularity at the moment and if they don't want to make themselves irrelevant then they need to just stay as a moaning group who feel hard done by. They won't have that luxury inside the EU on their own. Sturgeon and Salmond are not that stupid not to see it surely? And the Scots certainly won't be that stupid once the reality of their situation confronts them for real.
And that's even before we get to a possible quota of migrants being foisted on Scotland as a condition of schengen membership. Sturgeon might swallow it but I doubt the Scots will take to it kindly. They're canny people.

That is such a deliciously ironic post and I almost think you are an inner now playing a joke on us all. You rip apart the out vote under the guise of Scotland.... Put a spell check through that swapping sturgeon for farage and you have nailed why in will win

 

[EalingBlue2]

Scotland leaves, Wales probably not until they realise that the UK has become a one party state, and northern Ireland could have real serious consequences such as an increase in sectarianism

Other than Scotland leaves the rest is guesswork

I do worry about sectarianism , everything about UKIP plays into the old extremes of unionism and nationalism rising in Wales and Scotland can only stir the hearts of many. I do hope the troubles don't return and the UK isn't destroyed as a chunk of the English population try desperately to bring back the Great Britain that once was a century or more ago

 

[hgblue]

I don't believe that when push comes to shove the Scots will vote for independence in a second vote. Most Scots have been through a decent enough education for them to weigh up the problems that come with independence. What would be the point of rejecting the notion of a united Kingdom to replace it with EU federalism? They do alright out of the UK at the moment. There is no guarantee that they wouldn't become the next Greece if they turned their back on the pound and accepted the Euro. The SNP are in a bubble of nationalsitic popularity at the moment and if they don't want to make themselves irrelevant then they need to just stay as a moaning group who feel hard done by. They won't have that luxury inside the EU on their own. Sturgeon and Salmond are not that stupid not to see it surely? And the Scots certainly won't be that stupid once the reality of their situation confronts them for real.
And that's even before we get to a possible quota of migrants being foisted on Scotland as a condition of schengen membership. Sturgeon might swallow it but I doubt the Scots will take to it kindly. They're canny people.

I agree they're unlikely to vote for independence, but that's a matter for the Scottish people. The whole 'vote Remain to keep the union together' line is a total red herring because the SNP will hold a second referendum regardless anyway. The clue is in the name of the party.

 

[EalingBlue2]

I agree they're unlikely to vote for independence, but that's a matter for the Scottish people. The whole 'vote Remain to keep the union together' line is a total red herring because the SNP will hold a second referendum regardless anyway. The clue is in the name of the party.

Where would you stand if the people of northern England wanted to join Scotland rather than be governed by a south east a Tory dictatorship forever - that ok too? Or if the Shetland and Orkneys wanted to join up with their Viking cousins in Norway ?

 

[hgblue]

Where would you stand if the people of northern England wanted to join Scotland rather than be governed by a south east a Tory dictatorship forever - that ok too? Or if the Shetland and Orkneys wanted to join up with their Viking cousins in Norway ?

Talking of red herrings....... ;)

 

[KenTheLandlord]

That is such a deliciously ironic post and I almost think you are an inner now playing a joke on us all. You rip apart the out vote under the guise of Scotland.... Put a spell check through that swapping sturgeon for farage and you have nailed why in will win

I was thinking the exact same thing, switch SNP for Brexit and the stand out line being.
The SNP are in a bubble of nationalsitic popularity at the moment and if they don't want to make themselves irrelevant then they need to just stay as a moaning group who feel hard done by.